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  LiveWire / Teen Forums / Science & Business / Viewing Topic

I openly challenge Yank to a debate
on the scientific merits of creationism
Replies: 55Last Post Nov. 2, 2006 11:15pm by missy777
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Argument one:  

1) A global flood, if it did occur, would have left fossils of every species in every strata as it laid down sediment. We should find all over the world, the same species in the same strata. No where on Earth do you find fossils of dinosaurs, mastodons, Precambrian shellfish and primates in the same strata. The flood was thought to have been extremely violent; churning up huge volumes of water this would have mixed the carcasses of species into one homogenous layer, advanced creatures with less advanced all whirling around in the cacophony of death together. While heavier species would have sunk faster, we should see more or less homogenous strata all over the Earth. This occurs nowhere on the planet.  

2) The global flood should have left homogenous sediment layers across the world, similar to the Iridium layer that the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs left on the Earth. No such layer of sediment exists for that time period.    

3) The necessary water to cover the Earth would have been astronomical. The oceans cover roughly 2/3rds of the Earth. That is sea level, to cover the highest point, Everest (29,028 feet feet above sea level), would require JUST to raise sea level, 756,821,205 cubic miles of water.    

The fundemental problem is that the Oceans, seas and bays make up 96.5% of total water on the Earth and they only have 321,000,000 cubic miles. That leaves a huge amount of water that would need to come from somewhere.    

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/DanielChen.shtml  

There's simply isn't that much water on Earth to allow such a flood.    
Some argue that the mountains weren’t that tall yet. That makes no sense whatsoever given the rates of tectonic plate drift. Plates move at 1 inch a year. That’s 500 feet over 6,000 years. Everest is by far taller then that. Some argue that plates moved faster. To create Everest in 6,000 years would mean plates would have to move almost five feet every year in the same direction. While plate movements are related to the Earth’s core heat, the necessary heat to have that much movement would mean the Earth’s core would have to be 580% times hotter. That’s way more then the surface of the Sun.  

4) The global flood says that the world was covered by water. The problem with that is such an infusion of water would have created brine. As the water receded and evaporated, huge amounts of salt would have remained on the land. Very few plants can grow on salted Earth, and those who can are not agricultural crops. Virtually every creature in the oceans has a low tolerance for salitnity change. A slight change can result in massive dieoffs. That would mean, as the salinity rapidly changed, that many creatures, if not virtually all would have died from osmosis. That means Noah would have had to keep two of every species of oceanic creatures onboard the ship. Given the measurements, the boat cannot hold two of every whale and shark. Even worse, as most of the oxygen comes from algea and seaweed, the change in salinity and pressure would have killed off the producers of oxygen. Life simply couldn't exist after a flood of such proportions. While some modern species can survive in salinity conditions very different then their norm, most cannot survive for extended periods of time, such as 40 days. Furthermore, their prey sources often cannot survive that long as well. Even more alarming is that if the alga managed to survive, the death of billions of life on Earth would have resulted in decay which results in nutrients which would have resulted in alga explosions like no other, removing oxygen from the oceans, suffocating every living thing left.  

5) Some say that the water came from underground, a mile to be percise. The problem with that is the water would be superheated. Releasing 756,821,205 cubic miles of superheated water would have boiled everything to death almost instantly. The oceans would have also boiled away, killing all marine life, fresh water lakes would have done the same. The mantle of the Earth is 100 Celsius. Therefore the steam would be roughly that hot. That’s 212 degrees Fahrenheit. 756,821,205 cubic miles of 212 degree Fahrenheit water in a world that is typically no hotter then 80 degrees average would be instant death to everything.  

6) If literal creation was true, 4.5 billion years of dust would have have to be compacted into 1 flood year.
3 x 107 kg x 4.5 x 109 years worth of meteorite flux
=1.35 x 1017 kg of meteoritic material fell during the flood year.

The energy imparted by this amount of material is equal to:
1/2 M V2, where M is the mass of the extraterrestrial material, and V is the velocity at which it falls to the Earth (equal to the escape velocity, or 11200 m/s). This gives:
1/2 (1.35 x 1017 kg) * (11200 m/s)2
= 8.5 x 1024 Joules.

So the Earth's atmosphere would have had to accomodate 8 x 1024 J of energy from this falling meteorite matter. We can do a quick calculation to determine the amount of heating this would cause:

Energy = Matmo * Cp *(T), where Matmo is the mass of the atmosphere (5 x 1018 kg), Cp is the pressure constant for air (about 716 J/kg * K for N2), and T is the temperature change of the atmosphere. Solve for T:
T = Energy/ (Matmo * Cp)
= 8 x 1024 J / ((5 x 1018 kg) *716 J /kg * K)
= 2,400 K.

So the temperature change of the Earth's atmosphere would be about a 2,400 K increase.

I await a reply.

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2:53 pm on Sep. 9, 2006 | Joined Sep. 2005 | 888 Days Active
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tait


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that must have been hard, i mean all that copying and pasting

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gmailrox


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huh I'm so confused.....and I'm a math and science major not much stumps me

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Quote: from tait at 11:54 am on Sep. 9, 2006

that must have been hard, i mean all that copying and pasting

well, he refuses to post in the central thread. So this is a open challenge. He has to deal with the arguments here or he admits he is a coward.

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Too Imaginative Teen

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Is this going to be a debate or a show off topic?

2:56 pm on Sep. 9, 2006 | Joined Dec. 2005 | 225 Days Active
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Quote: from Too Imaginative Teen at 11:56 am on Sep. 9, 2006

Is this going to be a debate or a show off topic?

Neither: I'm betting Yank won't post. The key to his argument is to win through force of personality, instead of reasoned arguments. He avoids honest debate, refuses to debate specific points and jumps from one argument to another. This is a specific tactic to pin him to a topic or have him admit he is a coward, both of which rip huge holes into his strategy of force of personality.

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wow..that was flawless....*flawless victory*

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tait


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should you not be posting this as a message?

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2:59 pm on Sep. 9, 2006 | Joined April 2005 | 922 Days Active
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Quote: from tait at 11:59 am on Sep. 9, 2006

should you not be posting this as a message?

It has to be. I'll PM you with the detailed reason

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3:01 pm on Sep. 9, 2006 | Joined Sep. 2005 | 888 Days Active
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silentkiller


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you know god can do alot of things right

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Quote: from silentkiller at 12:03 pm on Sep. 9, 2006

you know god can do alot of things right

Doesn't mean it did literal creation. Ever heard of Deism? That rejects literal creationism because it is directly contridictory to the nature of God.

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Xeison


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The Christian responce to all of this, if i remember correctly would be that, GOd can create the water, and get rid of the salt on the land, and the lack of evidence, like there not being a homogenous layer of fossils, is Satan trying to decieve you and lead you away from God so that you go to Hell. Anyways, i think you have written your argument well, but i am not sure how you can really deter him when he can jsut throw that argument over and over again, they is no debate you can have logically, becuase faith isthtat, faith.

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Quote: from Xeison at 12:16 pm on Sep. 9, 2006

The Christian responce to all of this, if i remember correctly would be that, GOd can create the water, and get rid of the salt on the land, and the lack of evidence, like there not being a homogenous layer of fossils, is Satan trying to decieve you and lead you away from God so that you go to Hell. Anyways, i think you have written your argument well, but i am not sure how you can really deter him when he can jsut throw that argument over and over again, they is no debate you can have logically, becuase faith isthtat, faith.

To tell you the truth, this isn't about changing his ideas or detering him, it's about discrediting him as well as showing him to be a coward. So it's not directly about him, it's about his effect on impressionable people.

Besides, you just highlighted a conclusion that would arise, that literal creationist rely on rejecting science as well as the modern world as whole.

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yankeefan


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wow, OC, you're getting testy.

However, I don't EVER recall hearing ANY of your arguements anywhere else.  Cite an article by any well known source and I'll respond to it.


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Quote: from yankeefan at 1:25 pm on Sep. 9, 2006


However, I don't EVER recall hearing ANY of your arguements anywhere else.

http://www.golivewire.com/forums/peer-340377-support-0.html

You lie.  


Cite a article by any well known source and I'll  
respond to it.

How about you deal with the problems I already gave you?

Besides, you don't cite anything yourself that's well known or even credible, particularly the whole dino blood argument which was proven to be a giant lie on your part. I know exactly what you're trying to do anyways. This is not a discussion on evolution, this is a discussion on literal creationism. Plus I actually come up with my own arguments, I don't plagarize like you.

If you do not have any rebuttles, admit it.

Post edited at 6:00 pm on Sep. 9, 2006 by obvious child

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