Analyze my debate style -- LiveWire Teen Forums

I was debating stuff with a friend of mine, and I was wondering what you thought about both our arguements. No, not how you feel about the issue, but in the way in which we debated. For example: Was I being nit-picky about something too trivial? Was he getting stuck on something just as trivial? Just your thoughts. Here is the conversation:

ShadowCreator: Hey.
Khadgar: Howdy.
ShadowCreator: I saw something funny.
ShadowCreator: Is religious fanatacism genetic? It runs in the family, so it must be a biological disorder.
Khadgar: HAH!
Khadgar: Niceee.
Khadgar: Must be. *rolls eyes*
ShadowCreator: That made me el-oh-el.
Khadgar: You know, in all honesty, it PROBABLY is partially genetic.
ShadowCreator: Nah.
Khadgar: The genetic predispositions that cause one to be more likely to become a fanatic
ShadowCreator: Higher intelligence, deep thinking, etc.
Khadgar: Would run in familes.
ShadowCreator: Well, extroverted tendencies.
ShadowCreator: Etc.
ShadowCreator: Might.
Khadgar: Yeah, that's what I meant.
ShadowCreator: Apparently, there are studies to suggest that childhood trauma and environmental factors have large influences in the development of schizophrenia.
Khadgar: I wouldn't doubt it.
Khadgar: I'm sure childhood experiences have a profound impact on EVERYTHING in life.
Khadgar: Along with environment.
ShadowCreator: And there are supposed 'genetic links' that have been found, but none of it is actually proven. It's really vague, and it's done with a computer, maping vague similarities between parents and children of the sector of the brain that governs emotion, chemical output, etc. No genes, just chromosmal similaries. Completely inconclusive, yet largely cited as 'proof'. Also not mentioned that these families are most likely abusive and bring their kids up in this fashion.
ShadowCreator: More recently.
Khadgar: Same with environment.
Khadgar: It's not proven.
Khadgar: You can't PROVE anything.
ShadowCreator: No, environment has much more evidence.
ShadowCreator: Well duh.
ShadowCreator: But you can have more evidence.
Khadgar: bahaha
Khadgar: Nature vs nurture.
ShadowCreator: People in negative environments are much more likely to be diagnosed with the disorder.
ShadowCreator: People who experience childhood trauma are too.
Khadgar: Sure, it may be true.
ShadowCreator: It's a lot more conclusive than the 'genetics' idea.
ShadowCreator: It's because psychiatry has been mindlessly searching for 'biological evidence', and when they get even a small tidbit of inane crap they go "HAY ITS PROOF".
ShadowCreator: While ignoring anything non-biological.
Khadgar: You know, I'm willing to betcha that psychological disorders, *gasp*, have a large part to do with the brain! go figure!
ShadowCreator: And the brain has to do with environments.
Khadgar: I don't see it like that.
ShadowCreator: And childhood trauma.
ShadowCreator: Experiences can literally reshape your mind.
Khadgar: Not what you said now, the stuff before.
ShadowCreator: And the way your mind functions.
ShadowCreator: While ignoring anything non-biological.
Khadgar: I disagree.
ShadowCreator: This is commonly what PSYCHIATRISTS do.
ShadowCreator: Psychologists do it less.
ShadowCreator: But they cannot deal with it well because it's more of a life skill than something you can be trained out of the books with.
ShadowCreator: Then again, most are not even given the chance to learn about it.
ShadowCreator: Because university commonly promotes biology strongly over situational aside from tragedies and losses.
Khadgar: And how would you know this?
Khadgar: You've taken a grand total of zero university classes.
ShadowCreator: Talking to people who have gone to them?
ShadowCreator: And known a lot of psych students?
Khadgar: Subjective. Not saying it's right or wrong, just...
ShadowCreator: I've also seen the way anonymousss argues.
ShadowCreator: That's just one example.
Khadgar: I mean, you'r eright about you can't teach that sort of other side.
ShadowCreator: "Give me 3000 peer reviewed journals that only back the biological factor"
ShadowCreator: "Or its wrong"
Khadgar: Well?
Khadgar: *shrug*
ShadowCreator: Anonymouss is a closed minded idiot/psych student.
Khadgar: Best way to disprove something is to disprove it the way they want you to, so they are convinced.
Khadgar: Can't do it any other way.
Khadgar: Perhaps he sees it more like
ShadowCreator: She*
Khadgar: Oops O:-)
Khadgar: If you can't do it that way, then perhaps you're unfounded.
Khadgar: Maybe that's how she sees it.
ShadowCreator: It's a bit hard to disprove things the way they want you to if they fail to understand the emotional aspect and thus reject it.
ShadowCreator: Well, criticism doesn't get that kind of circulation.
ShadowCreator: Only the studies that support the mindless garbage model.
ShadowCreator: Because it 'doesn't have a large reader audience', or some bullcrap.
Khadgar: Well? I dunno what to tell you.
ShadowCreator: just pray that a nuclear bomb falls on me
ShadowCreator: I found out that china is really fucking people up with psychiatric abuse.
ShadowCreator: And that it was really horrible in South Africa prior to apartheid.
ShadowCreator: And about the 'genetic' idea, genetics do determine personality traits. People with more introverted and passive personalities are going to be more susceptible to 'PTSD' and these 'panic disorders'.
Khadgar: Mmhmm.
ShadowCreator: At least to some degree.
ShadowCreator: And also, the holographic universe theory has JUST as much importance as genetics in 'mental health'.
ShadowCreator: It's theory.
ShadowCreator: Just like genetics.
ShadowCreator: And the details are also vastly inconclusive.
ShadowCreator: Which is just like genetics.
Khadgar: ....
ShadowCreator: Both should be confined to minor roles.
ShadowCreator: I meant the genetics of disorders.
Khadgar: hmm...
Khadgar: I don't know enough about either. I remember reading some of those articles you linked me to about holographic universe theory.
ShadowCreator: They should still be researched, but not used as a basis for treatment.
Khadgar: Maybe.
Khadgar: Well if they work, then why not?
Khadgar: Stick with the established theory until something more founded comes along.
Khadgar: I guess.
ShadowCreator: Genetic linkage to actual disorder.
ShadowCreator: Environment and situation already has the bulk of the evidence.
Khadgar: I don't think so.
ShadowCreator: Yes it does.
ShadowCreator: The bulk of the true, strong correlation.
Khadgar: correlation =/= causation.
ShadowCreator: The biological 'evidence' is largely ambiguous.
ShadowCreator: Also, personality traits will make certain people more susceptible to certain things.
Khadgar: correlation =/= causation
ShadowCreator: I never said it's the pure cause.
Khadgar: I know.
ShadowCreator: I said that it's at least a large part.
Khadgar: But you cannot infer cause from a relation.
Khadgar: Did you know that as ice cream consumtion increases, so does the murder rate?
ShadowCreator: From a strong relation, you can infer large amounts of causation.
ShadowCreator: That's a dumb analogy.
Khadgar: No, none.
Khadgar: You can't.
ShadowCreator: Environmental, maybe it's a correlation.
Khadgar: You can't determine any, at all.
ShadowCreator: Abuse, it's a causation.
Khadgar: And why is it a dumb analogy? It's true.
ShadowCreator: I'd say that abuse and torment will directly cause a lot of problems.
Khadgar: I could infer causation from that.
Khadgar: I could say that icecream causes murder.
Khadgar: The evidence is there
Khadgar: It's almost a 1:1 corelation.
ShadowCreator: Because abuse directly increases risks of 'disorders'.
ShadowCreator: Ice cream doesn't increase risk of murder.
ShadowCreator: It doesn't directly, at least.
Khadgar: How do you know?
ShadowCreator: There are studies.
Khadgar: the corelation is there.
ShadowCreator: And people under more stress.
Khadgar: perhaps it is the heat.
ShadowCreator: Are naturally more likely to have their minds altered by it.
Khadgar: when it's hotter, peopel eat more ice cream
ShadowCreator: It's not direct though.
Khadgar: and also are more irritated and murder more people
ShadowCreator: That's a huge counfounding variable.
Khadgar: but you can't know just from data.
ShadowCreator: Abuse directly contributes to mental disorders.
Khadgar: Just as you can say that there is a very strong corelation between abuse and mental disorders
Khadgar: without a controlled experiment manipulating one variable, you can't know.
ShadowCreator: The difference here is that ice cream consuption has no DIRECT link with murder.
ShadowCreator: Abuse does.
Khadgar: ANd even then, you can't know.
Khadgar: HOW DO YOU KNOW??
ShadowCreator: It's more valid than biology.
Khadgar: Have you tested it?
ShadowCreator: Erm, common sense?
Khadgar: There's you're flaw.
Khadgar: You can't infuse common sense into science.
ShadowCreator: WHEN HAS ICE CREAM DRIVEN ANYONE TO MURDER?
Khadgar: I dunno.
ShadowCreator: Because treating people with situational problems is a science.
ShadowCreator: This is the difference here.
ShadowCreator: Ice cream- murder is absurdity.
Khadgar: No it's not.
ShadowCreator: Trauma-disorder is proven.
Khadgar: I mean, either it is or it isn't.
ShadowCreator: By numerous studies.
ShadowCreator: Environment-disorder is also somewhat proven.
Khadgar: And if it's absurd, so is abuse/disorder based solely on corelation.
Khadgar: You can use corelation to see a connection
Khadgar: but then from there you have to test it.
ShadowCreator: The difference is that there are a million variables between ice cream and murder.
ShadowCreator: Therefore it is a stupid analogy.
Khadgar: Dude, you're spewing shit left and right here.
ShadowCreator: There are no variables between abuse and mental disorder.
Khadgar: They are one and the same.
Khadgar: Yes there are.
Khadgar: If anything, there are more!
ShadowCreator: No there are not.
ShadowCreator: It's ONE of the causes.
ShadowCreator: And that's proven by studies.
Khadgar: Punching someone in the face is abuse
Khadgar: it is not a disorder
ShadowCreator: Er....
ShadowCreator: Family abuse/trauma.
Khadgar: therefore it's not the same thing, therefore there is already at least one variable between the two.
ShadowCreator: I don't mean that.
ShadowCreator: Why do you get into stupid technicalities over nothing?
Khadgar: This isn't a technicality, this is the core of the whole issue.
ShadowCreator: No it isn't.
Khadgar: If you fuck up at the start, everything after that is wrong.
ShadowCreator: The ice cream analogy is dumb.
ShadowCreator: End of story.
Khadgar: If you forget to carry the one, you're fucked.
Khadgar: If you assume your entire argument based on this fact
Khadgar: and if we don't agree on this fact
Khadgar: then we can't go further.
ShadowCreator: Abuse is known to cause serious 'mental problems'.
ShadowCreator: Ice cream is not known to cause murder.
ShadowCreator: Big difference.
Khadgar: That's not what I'm saying, though.
ShadowCreator: Environment is known to strongly influence 'mental disorders'.
ShadowCreator: Ice cream is not.
Khadgar: I was making the point that two things can be strongly related when ti comes to data, but COMPELTELY unrelated when it comes to cause.
Khadgar: Here is an alternative explaination. Not saying this is correct or not, just an alternative explaination for the data.
ShadowCreator: Ice cream could make someone fat if eaten to excess which would cause them to sit around and get fat and then mope over how they're fat and then get depressed.
Khadgar: You say abuse leads to disorders.
Khadgar: What if it was the other way around?
ShadowCreator: Er....
Khadgar: People with disorders are more likely to get abused.
Khadgar: Because, I dunno, they annoy people.
Khadgar: ANd then the annoyed people abuse them.
Khadgar: Could be.
Khadgar: It seems counterintuative, and is likely wrong, but it's still possible.
ShadowCreator: No. Generally, the problems continue getting worse.
ShadowCreator: I'm sure that that contributes to it.
ShadowCreator: Though.
ShadowCreator: I won't deny that either.
ShadowCreator: The 'disorder' is likely brought upon by abuse and torment as well as environment.
ShadowCreator: Then when it's come up.
Khadgar: I mean, let me just say that I'm not trying to argue what you are saying here.
Khadgar: I'm only trying to argue with how you are reaching your conclusions.
ShadowCreator: I don't really care though.
ShadowCreator: I'm tired and I might have misworded something.
Khadgar: No, you didn't.
Khadgar: As far as I know.
Khadgar: From what you've typed, I see how you come to these conclusions, and it's really a natural way to do it.
Khadgar: You see two things are related, like abuse and disorders.
ShadowCreator: They're directly related.
Khadgar: The most logical, obvious answer that fits all the data, is that abuse causes disorders.
ShadowCreator: With no in-between variables.
ShadowCreator: of course, there are other causes too.
ShadowCreator: Well okay.
ShadowCreator: Environment/society.
ShadowCreator: Could cause people to be predispositioned to excluding a certain personality type.
ShadowCreator: Which could cause the abuse.
ShadowCreator: Past abuse of parents.
ShadowCreator: Could cause child abuse.
ShadowCreator: But that aside.
Khadgar: You're really smart man. You are really thoughtful, and have a great mind. But a great mind alone is nothing without training.
ShadowCreator: I don't believe that training can be achieved without critical thinking.
ShadowCreator: And this is what the psychiatric field lacks.
ShadowCreator: Training involves real world experience.
ShadowCreator: Research
ShadowCreator: Personal effort.
Khadgar: Well I'm just saying... the reason that I get nit-picky with you about these things that seem trivial is because they really aren't.
ShadowCreator: And I have already done a lot of this.
ShadowCreator: You do have a point here that society could be the cause of all abuse.
ShadowCreator: Society causes these people to act abusive.
ShadowCreator: Etc.
ShadowCreator: But that's overanalyzing, although I will admit that that is true.
Khadgar: You think so much and so deeply about these things, that I really hate to see you make, what I see to be, rookie mistakes in standard logic, that's all.
ShadowCreator: Oh, well I'm really fucking tired.
ShadowCreator: I want to write a long paper about the psychiatric system.
Khadgar: Could be... but I just see you do these all the time. I think insertnamehere and anonymous see it too. I think. Besides anything else they say
ShadowCreator: They like to try to exploit it.
Khadgar: Yeah, probably.
Khadgar: But in any case, if you were to learn how to not do these things, or at least do them less often, they'd PROBABLY be a lot more receptive to things you have to say. because tbh, you come off as hostile as quite often.
ShadowCreator: That's because I've had very negative experiences with the system.
ShadowCreator: As have many I have helped.
Khadgar: Yeah.
Khadgar: Hey, would you mind if I posted this whole conversation in a thread somewhere?
ShadowCreator: Which one?
Khadgar: Which thread? Maybe a new one. I'd like to see what people have to say. Not about the points being discussed, just in the way they were discussed.
ShadowCreator: Sure, I was going to say erase the screen names but I don't really care.

So what do you think?

Post edited at 11:09 pm on Jan. 14, 2007 by Khadgar

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