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  LiveWire / Teen Forums / Health, Hygiene & Fitness / Viewing Topic

So, whats with all the circumcisions in the USA?
Replies: 51Last Post April 29, 2012 12:15pm by Wilder
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Wilder


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Quote: from Friendship is Magic at 11:13 am on April 29, 2012

Quote: from Wilder at 12:46 pm on April 29, 2012

Quote: from Friendship is Magic at 6:54 am on April 29, 2012

or a better way to fight HIV is to, you know, wear a condom and practice safe sex    
 in lieu of butchering a penis

That's like saying a better way to fight crime is for no one to steal anymore. We live in reality, not a hypothetical situation. People have unprotected sex despite knowing the consequences, ergo why HIV is a problem in the first place.

so you're saying to punish the majority of people for something a small minority does?

so because a few bad apples have dangerous, unprotected sex means circumcising all men is the best solution, even though the majority wouldn't take such risks?


51% of the population is not a small minority. It's the majority.


assuming that the only crime was stealing
the best solution is to have everyone stop stealing and impose punishments on those who do, like prison time

I would argue, to the contrary, that the best solution is to focus on reducing the social factors which lead people to crime in the first place (which would include  programs focused on rehabilitation, not punishment, for convicts).


if you teach people that stealing is wrong, most people won't steal
if you teach people that unsafe sex is dangerous, most won't take stupid risks

The facts say otherwise.

-------
In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable;
but it is interpretable otherwise,
it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.
-Nietzsche

10:18 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 2,325
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Quote: from Wilder at 6:13 pm on April 29, 2012

I fail to see how crime is a poor example of how simply wishing people to not do things that are detrimental to society as a whole doesn't work.

If we were talking about abstinence then the analogy would make sense. We're not.

HIV impacts a wide number of people who do not choose to have unprotected sex, from those who are infected through other ways (children born with the virus, victims of rape, exposure to infected blood, etc.)

So why so scared that you want people to be circumcised? They're probably more likely to get infected in the ways you just said!

to families crippled emotionally and economically by ill or dying providers to the larger society as a whole whose medical system is burdened by treating HIV positive patients and educating the population as a whole to try and reduce the virus' spread.

So people should wear condoms! Right!

This isn't a matter of individuals, but rather of a widely-destructive social problem. You don't have to choose to have unprotected sex to get HIV, and you don't have to have HIV to be negatively impacted by its existence.

So you're as likely to get HIV whether you're circumcised or not!

10:19 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: May 2011 | Days Active: 357
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Wilder


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If we were talking about abstinence then the analogy would make sense. We're not.
Could you explain what you see as the distinction between abstinence and safe sex which is a relevant variable to my point?


So why so scared that you want people to be circumcised? They're probably more likely to get infected in the ways you just said!
As I said before, I come from a place of compassion, not fear. The reason that I want people to be circumcised is because it massively reduces the risk of the main way that the virus spreads, which in turn massively reduces the risk of it spreading in other ways as the percentage of the infected population drops.


So people should wear condoms! Right!
Yes. But the majority of them won't at least once with a partner whose sexual history they do not know.


So you're as likely to get HIV whether you're circumcised or not!
You should be able to see why this is neither true nor something that I said, but to be clear, massively reducing your risk of getting HIV from unprotected sex massively reduces your risk of getting HIV. It's like wearing a condom or a bullet-proof vest--does it guarantee that you won't get a disease/impregnate a girl/survive a bullet? No. But it greatly improves your odds.

Post edited at 10:24 am on April 29, 2012 by Wilder

-------
In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable;
but it is interpretable otherwise,
it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.
-Nietzsche


10:23 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 2,325
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Quote: from Wilder at 6:23 pm on April 29, 2012

Could you explain what you see as the distinction between abstinence and safe sex which is a relevant variable to my point?

Solution to crime: don't commit crime
So, logical step: Solution to spread of hiv: don't have sex?

So, no sense it makes


You should be able to see why this is neither true nor something that I said, but to be clear, massively reducing your risk of getting HIV from unprotected sex massively reduces your risk of getting HIV. It's like wearing a condom or a bullet-proof vest--does it guarantee that you won't get a disease/impregnate a girl/survive a bullet? No. But it greatly improves your odds.

So, things that reduce your chance of getting hiv:
circumcision
condoms

except, circumcision helps what, 50% of the time? According to that study
and condoms help, 99%+?

Yeah, circumcision is clearly the way to go, instead of educating people to use condoms


10:26 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: May 2011 | Days Active: 357
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Wilder


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Solution to crime: don't commit crime
So, logical step: Solution to spread of hiv: don't have sex?
So, no sense it makes

My point would be better represented as:
Illogical solution to crime: no one commits crime
Illogical solution to HIV: no one has unprotected sex

That seems to work to me.


So, things that reduce your chance of getting hiv:
circumcision
condoms

except, circumcision helps what, 50% of the time? According to that study
and condoms help, 99%+?

Yeah, circumcision is clearly the way to go, instead of educating people to use condoms.


Condoms are 99% effective when used correctly every time. Did you miss the link I edited into my post? We've been educating people on using condoms for quite some time, but more than half of the population has still had unprotected sex with a partner whose sexual history they do not know. To tout the efficacy of using a condom without noting the fact that, at one time or another, most people don't is to completely ignore my argument.

-------
In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable;
but it is interpretable otherwise,
it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.
-Nietzsche

10:31 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 2,325
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Quote: from Wilder at 6:31 pm on April 29, 2012



Solution to crime: don't commit crime  
So, logical step: Solution to spread of hiv: don't have sex?
So, no sense it makes

My point would be better represented as:
Illogical solution to crime: no one commits crime
Illogical solution to HIV: no one has unprotected sex

That seems to work to me.


So, things that reduce your chance of getting hiv:  
circumcision  
condoms

except, circumcision helps what, 50% of the time? According to that study  
and condoms help, 99%+?

Yeah, circumcision is clearly the way to go, instead of educating people to use condoms.


Condoms are 99% effective when used correctly every time. Did you miss the link I edited into my post? We've been educating people on using condoms for quite some time, but more than half of the population has still had unprotected sex with a partner whose sexual history they do not know. To tout the efficacy of using a condom without noting the fact that, at one time or another, most people don't is to completely ignore my argument.

It goes back to the point that people deserve to suffer for their own stupidity

your attitude wouldnt cut it for virtually any other problem in life


10:32 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: May 2011 | Days Active: 357
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Wilder


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It goes back to the point that people deserve to suffer for their own stupidity
If you're going to go back to that point you might want to respond to my objection to it.

"I don't believe that people deserve to have bad things happen to them if they make poor choices, but that's a moot point. Even with a callous disregard for those who are infected through unprotected sex, HIV impacts a wide number of people who do not choose to have unprotected sex, from those who are infected through other ways (children born with the virus, victims of rape, exposure to infected blood, etc.) to families crippled emotionally and economically by ill or dying providers to the larger society as a whole whose medical system is burdened by treating HIV positive patients and educating the population as a whole to try and reduce the virus' spread. This isn't a matter of individuals, but rather of a widely-destructive social problem. You don't have to choose to have unprotected sex to get HIV, and you don't have to have HIV to be negatively impacted by its existence."


your attitude wouldnt cut it for virtually any other problem in life
Such as?

-------
In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable;
but it is interpretable otherwise,
it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.
-Nietzsche

10:37 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 2,325
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It's still popular because it's constantly reinvented as a miracle cure-all for whatever is the most 'icky' problem of the year or decade.

First it was a cure for masturbation, when masturbation was a sin.

Then masturbation became normal and healthy and so it became a cure for penile cancer around the 80s and 90s when cancer was even scarier and less treatable than it was today.

Then cancer survival rates went up and studies were released that showed that penile cancer was one of the rarest cancers in the entire world.

So then it became a miracle cure against UTIs (Urinary Tract Infections). But people realized that UTIs were usually more mild than a cold and the treatment is a 5-7 day course of mild antibiotics. Surgery was an extreme response.

So now it's become a cure against HIV.

Soon enough they'll find a cure for HIV or people will realize that there's few people with HIV in the US or that condoms are your friend.

And I'm sure they'll find new ways to say the circumcision can cure a disease. Perhaps Vertigo or Blindness or being Deaf.

The bottom line is that it's a mega money-maker for Doctors and Hospitals and any time they have something that makes money, they're reluctant to let it go even if it's the best interest of its patients. It can be up to $500 or more for a circumcision, out of pocket for the parents most times, for about 10 minutes work. So if you do even two a day that's $1000 easy for not even 30 minutes of work.


10:39 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: July 2005 | Days Active: 1,460
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Quote: from Wilder at 6:37 pm on April 29, 2012

If you're going to go back to that point you might want to respond to my objection to it.  

Not really, I don't need to read it twice

Such as?

Well can you show me any problem that can be solved by mutilating children "for the greater good" that would be accepted?

Post edited at 10:41 am on April 29, 2012 by 8086


10:41 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: May 2011 | Days Active: 357
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Wilder


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Not really, I don't need to read it twice
You don't need to read it twice, but actually responding to the objection once would probably be a good idea if you want to make a solid and convincing argument.


Well can you show me any problem that can be solved by mutilating children "for the greater good" that would be accepted?
Ah, I thought you were just referring to a social health perspective over one emphasizing individual choice. I'm not aware of any other serious medical problems which can be massively reduced by a surgery comparable to circumcision in terms of harm, nor do I see any reason that it affects my point.

-------
In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable;
but it is interpretable otherwise,
it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.
-Nietzsche

10:45 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 2,325
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Wilder


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Quote: from Nyctimene at 11:39 am on April 29, 2012

Soon enough they'll find a cure for HIV or people will realize that there's few people with HIV in the US or that condoms are your friend.  
There are over 1,000,000 HIV positive people in the US and more than half of the population doesn't use condoms all of the time when sleeping with a partner with an unknown sexual history.

-------
In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable;
but it is interpretable otherwise,
it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.
-Nietzsche

10:46 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 2,325
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Friendship is Magic


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Quote: from Wilder at 1:18 pm on April 29, 2012

Quote: from Friendship is Magic at 11:13 am on April 29, 2012

Quote: from Wilder at 12:46 pm on April 29, 2012

Quote: from Friendship is Magic at 6:54 am on April 29, 2012

or a better way to fight HIV is to, you know, wear a condom and practice safe sex
  in lieu of butchering a penis

That's like saying a better way to fight crime is for no one to steal anymore. We live in reality, not a hypothetical situation. People have unprotected sex despite knowing the consequences, ergo why HIV is a problem in the first place.

so you're saying to punish the majority of people for something a small minority does?  

 so because a few bad apples have dangerous, unprotected sex means circumcising all men is the best solution, even though the majority wouldn't take such risks?  


51% of the population is not a small minority. It's the majority.



i'd say that's misleading
it doesn't mention how often they have unprotected sex
i'd say a lot of people have made a bad decision by having unprotected sex while drunk or some crazy shit and worried about it afterwards and learned from their mistake
while its true it only takes one time to get infected, i would think that those who do it all the time would be among the ones who are most likely infected with something

and also i'd say most people don't know their partners sexual history, unless you demanded to know the names of all the people they've slept with
even if you're in a serious relationship, talking about your sex life with your ex's is a pretty awkward subject


10:48 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 927
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Quote: from Wilder at 6:46 pm on April 29, 2012

more than half of the population doesn't use condoms all of the time when sleeping with a partner with an unknown sexual history.

Maybe this is the problem, not, you know, having an intact, unmutilated penis


10:49 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: May 2011 | Days Active: 357
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Wilder


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Quote: from Friendship is Magic at 11:48 am on April 29, 2012

Quote: from Wilder at 1:18 pm on April 29, 2012

Quote: from Friendship is Magic at 11:13 am on April 29, 2012

Quote: from Wilder at 12:46 pm on April 29, 2012

Quote: from Friendship is Magic at 6:54 am on April 29, 2012

or a better way to fight HIV is to, you know, wear a condom and practice safe sex      
  in lieu of butchering a penis

That's like saying a better way to fight crime is for no one to steal anymore. We live in reality, not a hypothetical situation. People have unprotected sex despite knowing the consequences, ergo why HIV is a problem in the first place.

so you're saying to punish the majority of people for something a small minority does?

  so because a few bad apples have dangerous, unprotected sex means circumcising all men is the best solution, even though the majority wouldn't take such risks?
 


51% of the population is not a small minority. It's the majority.  

 



i'd say that's misleading
it doesn't mention how often they have unprotected sex  
i'd say a lot of people have made a bad decision by having unprotected sex while drunk or some crazy shit and worried about it afterwards and learned from their mistake
while its true it only takes one time to get infected, i would think that those who do it all the time would be among the ones who are most likely infected with something

and also i'd say most people don't know their partners sexual history, unless you demanded to know the names of all the people they've slept with
even if you're in a serious relationship, talking about your sex life with your ex's is a pretty awkward subject


It's only misleading if you take it to claim that 51% of the population routinely has unsafe sex, which no one has. While those who routinely have unsafe sex are surely more at risk, the point stands that condoms aren't going to stop HIV transmission by themselves. Unsafe sex is still happening, HIV is still spreading (at a rate of about 50,000 new infections a year in the States), and thus circumcision is still a significant factor in reducing the spread of the virus. Safe sex should still be the primary thing we push for because it's obviously far more effective (and at much more than preventing HIV), but the argument that "the majority wouldn't take such risks" is simply not true.

-------
In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable;
but it is interpretable otherwise,
it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.
-Nietzsche

10:53 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 2,325
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Wilder


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Quote: from 8086 at 11:49 am on April 29, 2012

Quote: from Wilder at 6:46 pm on April 29, 2012

more than half of the population doesn't use condoms all of the time when sleeping with a partner with an unknown sexual history.

Maybe this is the problem, not, you know, having an intact, unmutilated penis


This is a problem that we should focus on reducing. It's also painfully apparent that it's a problem which we can only reduce, not remove, and thus it is not the cure-all to the spread of HIV.

-------
In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable;
but it is interpretable otherwise,
it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.
-Nietzsche

10:55 am on April 29, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 2,325
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