LiveWire Network Peer Answers Peer Support Teen Forums Tech Forums College Forums 151 users online 272476 members 51 active today Advertise Here Sign In
TeenCollegeTechPhotos | Quizzes | LiveSecret | Memberlist | Dictionary | FAQ
You have 1 new message.
Emergency Help
Until you sign up you can't do much. Yes, it's free.

Sign Up Now
Membername:
Password:
Already have an account?
Invite Friends
Active Members
Groups
Contests
Moderators
2 online / 4 MPM
Fresh Topics
  LiveWire / Teen Forums / Politics & Government / Viewing Topic

Why is being a communist such a bad thing?
Replies: 61Last Post May 1, 2012 11:47am by sweetjane
Welcome to LiveWire!
We're Stronger Together.
Join the Community
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5  Next » Email Print Favorite
Forever Angel


Time Enough for Love

Sustainer
Reply
Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.
No, it doesn't. No society can exist without some form of government/state. That "description" simply omits any mention of it.

-------
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's learning how to dance in the rain
"What one person receives without working for,
another person must work for without receiving."

6:23 am on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 3,051
Join to learn more about Forever Angel Kansas, United States | Female | Posts: 58,468 | Points: 124,054
LiveWire Humor
Link01


Dragon Tamer

Patron
Reply
its not as equal as it says it is and can put people in worse situations

-------
The Eleventh Doctor
If you are agitated and confused my work is done here

9:31 am on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Feb. 2006 | Days Active: 2,589
Join to learn more about Link01 Wales | Straight Male | Posts: 64,781 | Points: 89,220
lollerwhat


Dairy Product Addict
Reply
without the state there is no welfare or other forced equalities of outcomes of equality

-------
LW as a community supports and encourages false
accusations of sex crimes, especially against children.

9:33 am on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Oct. 2010 | Days Active: 653
Join to learn more about lollerwhat Texas, United States | Posts: 18,005 | Points: 24,022
RandomThought


Omnipotent One
Reply
Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:23 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.
No, it doesn't. No society can exist without some form of government/state. That "description" simply omits any mention of it.

Actually, the original Marxist idea went something like that, it was the whole point of the philosophy. The fact that you believe that a stateless society is not a possibility does not have any bearing on Marx's theories.


11:33 am on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Nov. 2010 | Days Active: 925
Join to learn more about RandomThought England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 7,285 | Points: 17,145
Forever Angel


Time Enough for Love

Sustainer
Reply
Quote: from RandomThought at 1:33 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:23 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.
No, it doesn't. No society can exist without some form of government/state. That "description" simply omits any mention of it.

Actually, the original Marxist idea went something like that, it was the whole point of the philosophy. The fact that you believe that a stateless society is not a possibility does not have any bearing on Marx's theories.

Marx's theories/opinions are no more valid than mine. And if you can find a surviving/viable "community" that doesn't/didn't have a "leader"(government) of some kind, I'd really like to read about it.

-------
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's learning how to dance in the rain
"What one person receives without working for,
another person must work for without receiving."

11:38 am on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 3,051
Join to learn more about Forever Angel Kansas, United States | Female | Posts: 58,468 | Points: 124,054
RandomThought


Omnipotent One
Reply
Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:38 pm on April 17, 2012

Marx's theories/opinions are no more valid than mine. And if you can find a surviving/viable "community" that doesn't/didn't have a "leader"(government) of some kind, I'd really like to read about it.

I didnt say Marx's theories were more valid than yours and I wasnt pointing to specific instances of communism. I was simply pointing out that you were wrong to say that communism is never conceived of as stateless. Like I said Marx conceived of society this way as the state, in his opinion, was the prime source of alienation and was standing in the way of mutual self-recognition.


11:46 am on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Nov. 2010 | Days Active: 925
Join to learn more about RandomThought England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 7,285 | Points: 17,145
Forever Angel


Time Enough for Love

Sustainer
Reply
Quote: from RandomThought at 1:46 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:38 pm on April 17, 2012

Marx's theories/opinions are no more valid than mine. And if you can find a surviving/viable "community" that doesn't/didn't have a "leader"(government) of some kind, I'd really like to read about it.
I didnt say Marx's theories were more valid than yours and I wasnt pointing to specific instances of communism. I was simply pointing out that you were wrong to say that communism is never conceived of as stateless. Like I said Marx conceived of society this way as the state, in his opinion, was the prime source of alienation and was standing in the way of mutual self-recognition.

And what I said was that "leadership" wasn't addressed in those treatises about communism. Whether or not it was conceived as stateless is irrelevant, since there is no way it could survive without "leadership".

-------
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's learning how to dance in the rain
"What one person receives without working for,
another person must work for without receiving."

11:54 am on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 3,051
Join to learn more about Forever Angel Kansas, United States | Female | Posts: 58,468 | Points: 124,054
Bud2400


skeet skeet skeet

Patron
Reply
You guys are thinking too large of a scale, think of a collection of a bunch of small and independent communes where everybody knows everybody and all membership to each one (or to none of them, if you'd rather go out and live on your own) is voluntary.  On such scales, a leaderless commune would be possible, but there would need to be some collective governing body to enforce certain rules / laws within the commune and to kick out violators / slackers.

-------
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bud2400

11:59 am on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2004 | Days Active: 2,416
Join to learn more about Bud2400 Washington, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 18,512 | Points: 45,001
RandomThought


Omnipotent One
Reply
Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:54 pm on April 17, 2012

And what I said was that "leadership" wasn't addressed in those treatises about communism. Whether or not it was conceived as stateless is irrelevant, since there is no way it could survive without "leadership".

What i'm saying is that it isnt irrelevant. You also got your facts wrong, Marx was fairly clear that there ought to be no state. It was not an absent minded omission, there are specific philosophical/psychological reasons why he did so.


12:03 pm on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Nov. 2010 | Days Active: 925
Join to learn more about RandomThought England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 7,285 | Points: 17,145
Forever Angel


Time Enough for Love

Sustainer
Reply
Quote: from RandomThought at 2:03 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:54 pm on April 17, 2012

And what I said was that "leadership" wasn't addressed in those treatises about communism. Whether or not it was conceived as stateless is irrelevant, since there is no way it could survive without "leadership".

What i'm saying is that it isnt irrelevant. You also got your facts wrong, Marx was fairly clear that there ought to be no state. It was not an absent minded omission, there are specific philosophical/psychological reasons why he did so.


You are disregarding the fact that any 'leader/group of decision makers' is the definition of "state" in any society that is too small to be considered a "city" or "state". Any community consisting of more than two people will need an arbiter/leader in order to maintain any sense of order over the long term.

-------
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's learning how to dance in the rain
"What one person receives without working for,
another person must work for without receiving."

12:13 pm on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 3,051
Join to learn more about Forever Angel Kansas, United States | Female | Posts: 58,468 | Points: 124,054
RandomThought


Omnipotent One
Reply
Quote: from Forever Angel at 8:13 pm on April 17, 2012

You are disregarding the fact that any 'leader/group of decision makers' is the definition of "state" in any society that is too small to be considered a "city" or "state". Any community consisting of more than two people will need an arbiter/leader in order to maintain any sense of order over the long term.

We've gone beyond the point I was making. But, know that I am not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with you on the matter of the necessity of the state, because that was not the original point I made. You seemed to have read what you wanted to read, not what I said, and replied accordingly.


12:21 pm on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Nov. 2010 | Days Active: 925
Join to learn more about RandomThought England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 7,285 | Points: 17,145
Forever Angel


Time Enough for Love

Sustainer
Reply
Quote: from RandomThought at 2:21 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Forever Angel at 8:13 pm on April 17, 2012

You are disregarding the fact that any 'leader/group of decision makers' is the definition of "state" in any society that is too small to be considered a "city" or "state". Any community consisting of more than two people will need an arbiter/leader in order to maintain any sense of order over the long term.
We've gone beyond the point I was making. But, know that I am not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with you on the matter of the necessity of the state, because that was not the original point I made. You seemed to have read what you wanted to read, not what I said, and replied accordingly.

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. I'm just defending what I said and my understanding of your posts is that you're saying I'm wrong. If that's an incorrect interpretation of your stance, I apologize for that.

-------
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's learning how to dance in the rain
"What one person receives without working for,
another person must work for without receiving."

12:46 pm on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 3,051
Join to learn more about Forever Angel Kansas, United States | Female | Posts: 58,468 | Points: 124,054
RandomThought


Omnipotent One
Reply
Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:23 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.
No, it doesn't....

Thats the part I disagreed with. The fact that you believe a stateless society is impossible is not to say that it was not theorised.


12:49 pm on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Nov. 2010 | Days Active: 925
Join to learn more about RandomThought England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 7,285 | Points: 17,145
Forever Angel


Time Enough for Love

Sustainer
Reply
Quote: from RandomThought at 2:49 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:23 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.
No, it doesn't....

Thats the part I disagreed with. The fact that you believe a stateless society is impossible is not to say that it was not theorised.


I stand by what I said in that post to include the part that you omitted... much like that theory omitted a part that would be crucial to the operation of that "stateless" society.

-------
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's learning how to dance in the rain
"What one person receives without working for,
another person must work for without receiving."

1:00 pm on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 3,051
Join to learn more about Forever Angel Kansas, United States | Female | Posts: 58,468 | Points: 124,054
RandomThought


Omnipotent One
Reply
Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:00 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from RandomThought at 2:49 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:23 pm on April 17, 2012

Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.
No, it doesn't....

 

 Thats the part I disagreed with. The fact that you believe a stateless society is impossible is not to say that it was not theorised.


I stand by what I said in that post to include the part that you omitted... much like that theory omitted a part that would be crucial to the operation of that "stateless" society.

Missing the point again.
Bacon said that communism was theorised as a stateless alternative to living, you said it wasn't. This was wrong.


1:30 pm on April 17, 2012 | Joined: Nov. 2010 | Days Active: 925
Join to learn more about RandomThought England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 7,285 | Points: 17,145
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5  Next » Email Print Favorite

Quick Reply

You are signed in as our guest.

Looking for something else?
 

  LiveWire / Teen Forums / Politics & Government / Viewing Topic