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Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.

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Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

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Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.

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No, it doesn't. No society can exist without some form of government/state. That "description" simply omits any mention of it.

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Actually, the original Marxist idea went something like that, it was the whole point of the philosophy. The fact that you believe that a stateless society is not a possibility does not have any bearing on Marx's theories.

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:23 pm on April 17, 2012

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Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

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Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.

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No, it doesn't. No society can exist without some form of government/state. That "description" simply omits any mention of it.

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Actually, the original Marxist idea went something like that, it was the whole point of the philosophy. The fact that you believe that a stateless society is not a possibility does not have any bearing on Marx's theories.

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Marx's theories/opinions are no more valid than mine. And if you can find a surviving/viable "community" that doesn't/didn't have a "leader"(government) of some kind, I'd really like to read about it.

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I didnt say Marx's theories were more valid than yours and I wasnt pointing to specific instances of communism. I was simply pointing out that you were wrong to say that communism is never conceived of as stateless. Like I said Marx conceived of society this way as the state, in his opinion, was the prime source of alienation and was standing in the way of mutual self-recognition.

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:38 pm on April 17, 2012

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Marx's theories/opinions are no more valid than mine. And if you can find a surviving/viable "community" that doesn't/didn't have a "leader"(government) of some kind, I'd really like to read about it.

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I didnt say Marx's theories were more valid than yours and I wasnt pointing to specific instances of communism. I was simply pointing out that you were wrong to say that communism is never conceived of as stateless. Like I said Marx conceived of society this way as the state, in his opinion, was the prime source of alienation and was standing in the way of mutual self-recognition.

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And what I said was that "leadership" wasn't addressed in those treatises about communism. Whether or not it was conceived as stateless is irrelevant, since there is no way it could survive without "leadership".

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What i'm saying is that it isnt irrelevant. You also got your facts wrong, Marx was fairly clear that there ought to be no state. It was not an absent minded omission, there are specific philosophical/psychological reasons why he did so.

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:54 pm on April 17, 2012

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And what I said was that "leadership" wasn't addressed in those treatises about communism. Whether or not it was conceived as stateless is irrelevant, since there is no way it could survive without "leadership".

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What i'm saying is that it isnt irrelevant. You also got your facts wrong, Marx was fairly clear that there ought to be no state. It was not an absent minded omission, there are specific philosophical/psychological reasons why he did so.

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You are disregarding the fact that any 'leader/group of decision makers' is the definition of "state" in any society that is too small to be considered a "city" or "state". Any community consisting of more than two people will need an arbiter/leader in order to maintain any sense of order over the long term.

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We've gone beyond the point I was making. But, know that I am not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with you on the matter of the necessity of the state, because that was not the original point I made. You seemed to have read what you wanted to read, not what I said, and replied accordingly.

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 8:13 pm on April 17, 2012

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You are disregarding the fact that any 'leader/group of decision makers' is the definition of "state" in any society that is too small to be considered a "city" or "state". Any community consisting of more than two people will need an arbiter/leader in order to maintain any sense of order over the long term.

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We've gone beyond the point I was making. But, know that I am not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with you on the matter of the necessity of the state, because that was not the original point I made. You seemed to have read what you wanted to read, not what I said, and replied accordingly.

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Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

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Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.

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No, it doesn't....

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Thats the part I disagreed with. The fact that you believe a stateless society is impossible is not to say that it was not theorised.

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:23 pm on April 17, 2012

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Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

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Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.

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No, it doesn't....

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Thats the part I disagreed with. The fact that you believe a stateless society is impossible is not to say that it was not theorised.

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Quote: from RandomThought at 2:49 pm on April 17, 2012

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:23 pm on April 17, 2012

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Quote: from Bacon at 1:06 am on April 17, 2012

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Contrary to what many people believe of communism, it actually describes a system without a government or state of any kind.

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No, it doesn't....

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 Thats the part I disagreed with. The fact that you believe a stateless society is impossible is not to say that it was not theorised.

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I stand by what I said in that post to include the part that you omitted... much like that theory omitted a part that would be crucial to the operation of that "stateless" society.

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Missing the point again.
Bacon said that communism was theorised as a stateless alternative to living, you said it wasn't. This was wrong.