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Quote: from chalkboard sonata at 8:42 pm on April 23, 2006

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Quote: from lunasantin at 3:18 am on April 24, 2006

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Very interesting post. I think I'm in love.    

 

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How would one go about redefining masculinity without compromising the core of self-determination?

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 That assumes that masculinity leads to self-determination, when generally gender roles do anything but lend themselves to individual freedom.    

 That said, the concept of masculinity seems dangerous because it implies to me that the only emotion I'm allowed to display is anger. A sad man is a weak man, to be ignored. A happy man is only happy because he has crushed his competition. A fearful man can only be afraid if he is facing a losing fight. Only a powerful man is worth notice, and the only way a man can become powerful is by completely defeating and morally crushing whatever stands in his way.    

 I see that looming threat, and I reject those shackles. There's more for me in life than just being powerful, because if I waste all my time on that, there won't be anything for me to enjoy along the way. Life isn't about who you can kill and defeat, it's about who you choose to live and prosper with.    

 No man has ever accomplished much on his own. The grand machine we call civilization is every ounce a group undertaking.

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I completely appreciate that, but there is still a very potent romance about the masculine loner: Homer's Odysseus, Ovid's Hercules, Hemingway's Robert Jordan, Heller's Yossarian, any character played by Humphrey Bogart, Clint Eastwood's "Blondie" from The Good The Bad And The Ugly, Camus' Meursault, ad nauseum. It is this sense of romance, rugged incompleteness and shrugging off the status quo which effectively summarises what it means to be a man, and it is this that I want to reclaim as my own.  

 Addendum: FMS, you also must realise that Conrad needed to have his book published. There's no use trying to be a world-shaker if no one is going to be able to read what you say.  

(Edited by chalkboard sonata at 10:50 am on April 24, 2006)

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Which then leads us to wonder why raw masculinity is so appealing to humans if is is of no use.

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I suspect that the appeal is similar to that of the monomyth. We're drawn to archetypes because they elevate us: we can identify with them, yet they are so much bigger than we are.  

In Kong's case, though most humans possess the traits associated with the archetype of the masculine loner, King Kong posseses them to such a degree that he transcends everyday people, who only possess those characteristics in subdued quantities. Kong ceases to be a realistic representation of a person, and instead becomes a mythic figure, an asymptotic ideal for masculinity. King Kong is larger than life, and though it'd be nigh impossible to actually function in the real world at that size, we still can't help but look up to him.

(Edited by quidam at 9:57 pm on April 29, 2006)

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Are you there, Margaret? It's me, God.

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I suspect that the appeal is similar to that of the monomyth. We're drawn to archetypes because they elevate us: we can identify with them, yet they are so much bigger than we are.  

In Kong's case, though most humans possess the traits associated with the archetype of the masculine loner, King Kong posseses them to such a degree that he transcends everyday people, who only possess those characteristics in subdued quantities. Kong ceases to be a realistic representation of a person, and instead becomes my a mythic figure, an asymptotic ideal for masculinity. King Kong is larger than life, and though it'd be nigh impossible to actually function in the real world at that size, we still can't help but look up to him.

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King Kong is larger than life, and though it'd be nigh impossible to actually function in the real world at that size, we still can't help but look up to him.

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King Kong is larger than life, and though it'd be nigh impossible to actually function in the real world at that size, we still can't help but look up to him.

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Well, it could function. Special doors, custom-built cars, Shaq's sneakers. There is hope out there.

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On a somewhat unrelated note, I saw the original Planet of the Apes for the first time last night. I never thought I'd feel genuine jingoism against a mob of TV-animals.

"Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!"
"WOOHOO, GO HUMANITY."

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Fucking for fear of not wanting to fear again.

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I think I'm sophisticated 'cause I'm living my life
like a good homo sapien
but all around me everybody's multiplying and
they're walking 'round like flies man.
So I'm no better than the animals sitting
in the cages in the zoo, man,
'cause compared to the flowers and the birds and the trees,
I am an apeman.

I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized
'cause I'm a strict vegetarian,
but with the over-population and inflation and starvation
and the crazy politicians,
I don't feel safe in this world no more.
I don't want to die in a nuclear war.
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an apeman.

I'm an apeman, I'm an ape, apeman, oh I'm an apeman.
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voodo man, oh I'm an apeman,
'cause compared to the sun that sits in the sky,
compared to the clouds as they roll by,
compared to the bugs and the spiders and flies, I am an apeman.

In man's evolution, he's created the city
and the motor traffic rumble;
but give me half a chance and I'd be taking off my clothes
and living in the jungle,
'cause the only time that I feel at ease
is swinging up and down in the coconut trees.
Oh, what a life of luxury to be like an apeman.

I'm an apeman, I'm an ape, apeman, oh I'm an apeman.
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voodo man, oh I'm an apeman.
I look out the window but I can't see the sky.
The air pollution is a-fucking up my eyes.
I want to get out of this city alive and make like an apeman.

Oh come on and love me, be my apeman girl
and we'll be so happy in my apeman world.

I'm an apeman, I'm an ape, apeman, oh I'm an apeman.
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voodo man, oh I'm an apeman.
I'll be your Tarzan, you'll be my Jane,
I'll keep you warm and you'll keep me sane.
We'll sit in the trees and eat bananas all day, just like an apeman.

I'm an apeman, I'm an ape, apeman, oh I'm an apeman.
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voodo man, oh I'm an apeman.
I don't feel safe in this world no more.
I don't want to die in a nuclear war.
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an apeman.

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KING KONG DID NOT DIE FOR YOUR SINS.

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Are you there, Margaret? It's me, God.

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Quote: from Apotheosis at 2:59 pm on April 27, 2006

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King Kong is larger than life, and though it'd be nigh impossible to actually function in the real world at that size, we still can't help but look up to him.

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Well, it could function. Special doors, custom-built cars, Shaq's sneakers. There is hope out there.

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That is an incredibly hilarious image.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I saw the original Planet of the Apes for the first time last night. I never thought I'd feel genuine jingoism against a mob of TV-animals.

"Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!"
"WOOHOO, GO HUMANITY."

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"What's that coming out of its nose?"

For the record, I do not endorse Space Balls.

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She took a sad song, made it better

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Quote: from chalkboard sonata at 3:33 pm on May 1, 2006

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Quote: from Apotheosis at 2:59 pm on April 27, 2006

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King Kong is larger than life, and though it'd be nigh impossible to actually function in the real world at that size, we still can't help but look up to him.

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Well, it could function. Special doors, custom-built cars, Shaq's sneakers. There is hope out there.

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That is an incredibly hilarious image.  

 On a somewhat unrelated note, I saw the original Planet of the Apes for the first time last night. I never thought I'd feel genuine jingoism against a mob of TV-animals.  

 "Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!"  
 "WOOHOO, GO HUMANITY."

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"What's that coming out of its nose?"

For the record, I do not endorse Space Balls.

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Everyone endorses Space Balls.

Anyone who claims otherwise is LYING.

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Are you there, Margaret? It's me, God.

Is it fair or even evident that society demands this of the modern man? Does this not parallel the demands of the females in our society with their pressure to be independent and yet still have to be with a man? Is Kong really just the ideal for what males want to be and what females want, or does Kong in some way symbolize the primal side of both genders and that is why we are so captivated by this creature. We want to be this animalistic figure and the side of that is the want of our animalistic counterparts.

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Abra

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Well, there's this saying about Don Quixote in spanish, that goes "El Quijote se hace, haciéndose". That is, Don Quixote is his ideal and is alive by continuously moving towards his idol. In much the same way, it is likely impossible or just impractical to design or live in a society where such ultimate realization would be possible (without even going into the loss of purpose that the final achievement of the personal apotheosis would entail), so the ideal (or most efficient) system is that which forces the individual to endless renovation (and, hence, personal and global enhancement) by allowing Kongs to exist as the limit points to our functions--in other words, as the larger-than-life objective that will always be getting closer, but always just slightly out of reach.

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(Edited by quidam at 4:15 am on May 9, 2006)

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Are you there, Margaret? It's me, God.

in the end my thoughts on this are many...

i am speaking as a woman, so take from it what you will..but i believe that men can no longer be men, because women are trying to be both men and women...and that is why we see this influx of "emo" culture that is emasculating men..it is a natural response to the feminist movement...if women demand to fill both roles there is a void that needs filling...

you asked how men can be men, and still get what they desire, which is the the love of a woman who requires them to be less of a man. my answer is that you must find a woman that is ready to fill her role, so you can fill yours.

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Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair,
gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your
inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet
spirit which is of great worth in God's sight