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  LiveWire / Teen Forums / The Intellectual Forum / Viewing Topic

Abortion and...
The Value of Human Life
Replies: 37Last Post Dec. 17, 2005 7:52am by Bizilbur
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The abortion issue is perhaps the most intractable social issue of all. The problem arises from the direct conflict between the moral-political rights of the woman and those of her fetus. The matter is further complicated by quantitive issues as will be shown further on.

Before attempting to derive a satisfactory solution let me state that I do so as an intellectual exercise and have no particular axe to grind ... nor do I have any personal interests in this matter.

Whatever may be decided, it will make no great difference ...

I say this even though some will argue forcefully that it will. The reason for the lack of effect will be that law of itself has no effect on morality. People will still harbor the same ill or good will toward their fellows. A small difference will be a greater or lesser number of "new" individuals added to the population depending on the wording of any change in abortion law. Some lesser difference will be observed in the authority granted to speakers for or against the dominant philosophy. The issue itself will go on however ... regardless of outcome.

Matters of Quantity

As a general rule:
That which is everywhere prevalent and/or easily obtainable, is considered of lesser value than that which is desired but difficult to acquire.

Hence, gold is more valuable than tin.

Hence, one human life is lessened in value by the gross increase in the population of Earth.

If there were trillions of beings inhabiting the solar system (a very remote possibility), of what value would that being be to his civilization as a whole? His value would be nil. Only his friends and family would care in the least. Conversely, if you were to travel for hundreds of miles before seeing another person, would not his value then be increased?

When commentators deride the callousness of our times they overlook that death and poverty are ubiquitous and cannot be expected to engender empathy. Morality has not lessened ... rather ... the quantity of people has increased so markedly as to cause disinterest.

Now, let us consider a single human cell. How little its value when compared to the whole organism. We lose and destroy them by the millions daily. Hence, the value of genetic information in general - its specific embodiment being the cell - is of miniscule importance.

Consider then the ovum. Its value is no more than any other cell (qua cell). It's value is entirely "potential". It is different from any other cell by virtue of the fact that it might become another unique individual. The key word is "unique". Any cell might (one day soon) be cloned to make another similar individual. However, an integrated aggregation of cells is considered of greater value than one cell for the same reason that a Renaissance painting is considered of greater value than a Modern smear painting.

One may then rightly conclude that the ovum possesses the least value in this issue and that social-moral-political value increases as the fetus grows and ... potentiality becomes actuality.

The true measure of value is found in the mind NOT in the body

The body of a fully grown man (of itself) is no more valuable than that of any other large mammal. Imagine the mind of an adult replaced with the mind of a cow. What do we have? Another grass eating future hamburger. Imagine then, the mind of that adult placed in the body of the cow. Then this cow would communicate with us ... he will find a way ... and we should be loath to kill and eat him.

Hence, it is the information contained within the brain which has the only true and enduring value.

Again now, by this criterion, the ovum has least value and the adult most and the dead body of a man least again. We lose value when we deteriorate in mind and body due to aging or disease or lack of thought. We gain value, as we age, [as actuality] and lose it at the same time [as potentiality]. Then, at some point we begin to lose both our potential and actual value due to age or infirmity until we are valuelessly entombed.

Value of Life

I've here defined the ovum as having least potential rising to maximum at about adolescence because the brain is not fully grown till then (excuse some inaccuracies here) ... deteriorating to physical worthlessness at death.

If we accept that potentiality is no more or less "valuable" than actuality, we may simply multiply both as equal constituents of value (i.e. P x A = V). The most valuable individual (as these things go mathematically) is then the adult at about 30-40 years of age. And this comports with the general attitudes found in civilization, e.g. the death of a man participating solidly in his career with children to support is seen as a great misfortune whereas the death of a man approaching retirement with grown children is less of a misfortune.

We can see then that abortion at an early fetal stage corresponds roughly to unplugging life support from a dying elderly patient (another somewhat knotty ethical problem). The end of life has much in common with the beginning.

What special points are reached in development?

Clearly, there is no obvious cutoff point in the development of the fetus to which we could point and say "Beyond here abortion should not be done". At least none is immediately apparent.

By my own insights, there is a special point in development which might have a bearing on the case. It is that moment when the fetus becomes self-aware. I have no realistic idea of when this occurs ... only that is must occur ... and ... the fetus must have moving-working hands and arms for it to occur. If this were at 3 months, I would favor that as a cutoff point but this occurence does not distinguish man from other animals ... it merely distinguishes him from inanimate matter and perhaps insects and other lower creatures who are probably not self-aware. Certainly, it occurs at least three months before birth.

There are those who assert that the ovum and/or fetus has a "soul" but such a term has no meaning divorced from thought. In fact, the only event that could be called the acquisition of a soul occurs at about one year after birth ... the toddler stage. At this point, the child acquires his master standard of judgement which he uses to organize all information gathered throughout life (see Nature of Man). Those who propose early fetal souls do not know what they are talking about. They regurgitate the ideas of others without understanding ... and those who originated the idea did so without adequate reflection, (aka - "revelation").

There are also those who give admonition to the effect that "You may be killing the next Beethoven". Of course, this is countered by its symmetric inverse, "You may be killing the next Hitler". So this argument is obviated.

What about the rights of the woman?

From the viewpoint of the mother-to-be all talk about "fetal rights" must seem bizarre since her consent is mandatory. No baby is born without at least the passive consent of the mother. There are any number of things she can do or not do which would lead to a failed or endangered pregnancy.

It is often stated that one individual cannot be forced to act on behalf of another (mother to fetus) and that forcing a pregnancy to conclusion by legalistic means is tantamount to slavery. This is a good argument in favor of some abortion rights and in fact is always at the bottom of every effort to maintain abortion rights. Generally, when abortion prohibitionists argue for no abortion rights at all, their argument peters out when confronting the mother-rights fact with the weak, nonsense-argument that "even a blastula has a soul".

Other weak or moderate pro-abortion arguments:
# "She will get one anyway"
# "The extra children born will be a drain on society"
# "A mother by force will not be a good mother"
# "A rape victim should not be forced to propegate the genes of her attacker"
# "Would anti-abortionists be willing to support the non-aborted child?"
The two arguments which will determine the exact and permanent fate of the abortion issue are as always ... and only

The Rights of the Fetus vs The Rights of the Mother

No other issue will ultimately count in the final analysis.

Consequently, the issue will act as it does now ... like a swing. When it goes too far to one side, forces on the other will rise to return to equilibrium and beyond. The press will continue to use the abortion question for news generation which can "get a rise out of 'em", i.e. they push the swing. The issue will not be "damped out" but will continue to swing this way and that until it is seen for what it really is ... a non-issue.

No matter what anyone thinks, does or says, women will continue to get abortions, but as always most will not. You will continue to see horror stories about the subject. There are horror stories in every subject.

One should always remember that ...
Children do their fair share of the dying on this planet ... maybe 100,000 per day or more ... a percentage of them are fetal ... but they aren't noticed too much. They're small and quite insignificant.   :_(

This issue is actually already decided ...

The consensus of adult opinion in the United States is that abortions should be allowed early in the pregnancy but not in the last months. However, the government in its present form cannot handle approximations (fuzzy logic) ... it can only deal with exact statements.

For instance, what if the speed limit was 50 MPH ~more or less~ instead of 50 MPH? Our government, as currently constructed, cannot deal with such things. Hence, it would spin its wheels indefinitely trying to finalize that which cannot be finalized into a perfectly defined rule ... in principle.

That is what we are currently seeing ... the government in a self-referential quandary ... Buridan's ass.

The form of government I have designed can handle "fuzzy law" as well as exactly defined law. It is the philosophical equivalent of adding quantum mechanics to classical mechanics.

Final Note:

The best thing that could happen is perfect birth control ... Put some infallible chemical in the water supply so that no woman could get pregnant without going to bottled water (sans chemical). But I don't expect this for a very, very long time ... if ever.

Without perfect prevention ...

Were I a doctor and a woman came to me for an abortion at the 7th month of a normal pregnancy ... I would refuse to do it ... and ... give her a metal coat hangar ... saying, "I hope ya' die".

And if one came to me before three months I would tell the do-gooders to "Mind your own business".

Obviously, somewhere in between these two states, "I" would be in the quandary ... but ... I have the 'male' option ...

"Do as you will lady ... the consequences are
yours to bear ... be they good or ill.".

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12:40 pm on Dec. 10, 2005 | Joined Dec. 2005 | 128 Days Active
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abspwnsyou

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Whatever may be decided, it will make no great difference ...

I say this even though some will argue forcefully that it will. The reason for the lack of effect will be that law of itself has no effect on morality. People will still harbor the same ill or good will toward their fellows. A small difference will be a greater or lesser number of "new" individuals added to the population depending on the wording of any change in abortion law. Some lesser difference will be observed in the authority granted to speakers for or against the dominant philosophy. The issue itself will go on however ... regardless of outcome.


Why have any law at all since he has no effect on morality?

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12:43 pm on Dec. 10, 2005 | Joined Mar. 2005 | 427 Days Active
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let me state that I do so as an intellectual exercise and have no particular axe to grind

Same liberal garbage, just trying to hide behind a massive amount of words in hopes that nobody realises that you are just full of crap.



law of itself has no effect on morality. People will still harbor the same ill or good will toward their fellows.

Yes why have any laws since they have no effect on morality?

Why have laws against murder, rape, theft, etc.?  They obviously mean nothing as these events occur on a regular basis in our world?



If there were trillions of beings inhabiting the solar system (a very remote possibility), of what value would that being be to his civilization as a whole? His value would be nil.  

Yet again why is murder illegal?  Human life obviously has no value as our population is so high, thus murder is simply population control.



Now, let us consider a single human cell. How little its value when compared to the whole organism. We lose and destroy them by the millions daily. Hence, the value of genetic information in general - its specific embodiment being the cell - is of miniscule importance...  
blah blah blah

At least it is nice to see that liberals still have no understanding of biology.

Unable to tell the differences between gametes and a seperate and unique individual.

Hell, you even try to mention clones, why obviously aren't unique individuals, but just a pathetic attempt by liberal trash to justify the murder of unique individuals.

You also try to talk about the actualization of potiental.

Blastocys embryos fetus infants toddlers adolescents, none of these lifeforms have actualized their potiental, as they are not human adults, which is the stage in life when your potiental has been actualized...

Thus, you must fully support the elimination of all of those lifeforms as they are just unactualized potiental...



The body of a fully grown man (of itself) is no more valuable than that of any other large mammal. Imagine the mind of an adult replaced with the mind of a cow.

Now we have partial support for eugenics, we will get the full support for eugenics later in the post.  As really what is the body of a fully grown human worth when it has the mind of a child in it?  

Obviously its value isn't near that of an adult human with an adult human mind, and all others should be eliminated, especially the mentally handicapped.



is that moment when the fetus becomes self-aware. I have no realistic idea of when this occurs ... only that is must occur ... and ... the fetus must have moving-working hands and arms for it to occur.

Ah yes, the true liberal desire, complete eugenics programs.  Obviously if a human isn't able to have working limbs, then it isn't worth being alive, thus should be eliminated on sight.



There are those who assert that the ovum and/or fetus has a "soul" but such a term has no meaning divorced from thought.

This is true, but you later prove that you don't have a damn clue as to what you are talking about anyways, so why should I bother explaining...



In fact, the only event that could be called the acquisition of a soul occurs at about one year after birth ... the toddler stage.

seriously...

Let me guess, infants are just sacks of cells with no soul that should be throw in dumpsters and flushed in the toilet?



Those who propose early fetal souls do not know what they are talking about. They regurgitate the ideas of others without understanding  

lollerskate, irony alert...



From the viewpoint of the mother-to-be all talk about "fetal rights" must seem bizarre since her consent is mandatory.

Exactly, children are nothing but property, that can be bought, sold or eliminated at any point in time. No questions asked.



There are any number of things she can do or not do which would lead to a failed or endangered pregnancy.  

Willfull neglect is a pretty strong charge to bring up against parents who murder their own children...



It is often stated that one individual cannot be forced to act on behalf of another  

Try that in a court of law where the parents are forced to act on the bahalf of their children when minors commit crimes...



by legalistic means is tantamount to slavery

Actually your treatment of children is more like slavery...



Generally, when abortion prohibitionists argue for no abortion rights at all, their argument peters out when confronting the mother-rights fact with the weak, nonsense-argument that "even a blastula has a soul".  

Mother-rights to murder their own children for whatever reason they want?

Sorry that even a blastoid has its own separate and unique DNA, and that the mother made the choice to have sex.

Sorry that the new seprate and unique individual has their own right to existance, and should have its right to be able to choose for itself if it really wants to live or not.



Other weak or moderate pro-abortion arguments:  
# "She will get one anyway"
# "The extra children born will be a drain on society"  
# "A mother by force will not be a good mother"  
# "A rape victim should not be forced to propegate the genes of her attacker"  
# "Would anti-abortionists be willing to support the non-aborted child?"  

I mean that is such a weak pro-abortion argument.  I mean what kind of pathetic trash would attempt to use it in an argument?



reason for the lack of effect will be that law of itself has no effect on morality. People will still harbor the same ill or good will toward their fellows ... The issue itself will go on however ... regardless of outcome.

Oh, that's right, you would...



but will continue to swing this way and that until it is seen for what it really is ... a non-issue

Exactly, murder is a non-issue and shouldn't be discussed.



No matter what anyone thinks, does or says, women will continue to get abortions



Other weak or moderate pro-abortion arguments:  
# "She will get one anyway"  



Children do their fair share of the dying on this planet

People are murdered everyday, why bother caring?



The consensus of adult opinion in the United States is that abortions should be allowed early in the pregnancy but not in the last months.

There was a vote on this?

Oh yes there was a vote on this.  It was a 6-3 vote on the US Supreme Court, that is known for judicial activism, circumventing the law, and circumventing public opinion.

Reality will show that the general consensus is that people oppose abortion, except in special circumstances, such as rape and medical issues.



The best thing that could happen is perfect birth control  

Sorry but that has been invented already, it is called keeping your pants on...



Put some infallible chemical in the water supply so that no woman  

Or maybe if she doesn't want to get pregnant, then she could have her ovaries removed?



Without perfect prevention  

Because babies are made by magic in liberal world and not by sex, then again in liberal world sex isn't even a choice but something that happens on accident like breathing...

P.S.  STFU and GTFO you idiot...

(Edited by abspwnsyou at 3:59 pm on Dec. 10, 2005)

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1:58 pm on Dec. 10, 2005 | Joined Mar. 2005 | 427 Days Active
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Bud2400


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Could a pro-lifer please explain one thing to me?

Exactly how is a fetus alive in the way we are?  How would it feel bad to "die" if it was never conscious and really thinking?  Separate DNA, moving, etc. seem irrelevant to me when one can't even "feel" its own existance.

If anyone could convince me that they are just as alive as humans are, then I'd be an ardent pro-lifer.


2:07 pm on Dec. 10, 2005 | Joined Dec. 2004 | 1101 Days Active
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ajm51987

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Way to plagiarize:

http://www.ebtx.com/pgv/pgv12g15.htm

I wish all my topics could be so easy to write... You do know that plagiarism is a crime don't you? Good job.

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Ouch, you busted me! I'm so ashamed of myself for this terrible infraction. You even caught me plagarizing the guys screename!


BAHAHAHHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


2:20 pm on Dec. 10, 2005 | Joined Dec. 2005 | 128 Days Active
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Umm... he did plagerize, off himself...

Which at least makes me feel good in the sense that there isn't another person quite as stupid as this one trying to run around and talk this bs.

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Quote: from Bud2400 at 10:07 pm on Dec. 10, 2005

Could a pro-lifer please explain one thing to me?

Exactly how is a fetus alive in the way we are?  How would it feel bad to "die" if it was never conscious and really thinking?  Separate DNA, moving, etc. seem irrelevant to me when one can't even "feel" its own existance.

If anyone could convince me that they are just as alive as humans are, then I'd be an ardent pro-lifer.


Actually, it's been proven that children in the womb, at very early stages of development (please don't ask me for figures as I can't quite remember them, but I do recall it being at a very early stage in the pregnancy), experience pain. Babies are in immense pain while being aborted, and it has even been reported that they are known to cry in the process (nobody likes pain, right?). It hurts me to think of this..

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Quote: from katyduck at 2:23 pm on Dec. 10, 2005

Quote: from Bud2400 at 10:07 pm on Dec. 10, 2005

Could a pro-lifer please explain one thing to me?  

 Exactly how is a fetus alive in the way we are?  How would it feel bad to "die" if it was never conscious and really thinking?  Separate DNA, moving, etc. seem irrelevant to me when one can't even "feel" its own existance.  

 If anyone could convince me that they are just as alive as humans are, then I'd be an ardent pro-lifer.


Actually, it's been proven that children in the womb, at very early stages of development (please don't ask me for figures as I can't quite remember them, but I do recall it being at a very early stage in the pregnancy), experience pain. Babies are in immense pain while being aborted, and it has even been reported that they are known to cry in the process (nobody likes pain, right?). It hurts me to think of this..



But they aren't conscious.  It's physically impossible for a fetus to be conscious.

What if you were unconscious and were in immense pain?  Would you remember it if you became conscious again?  Of course not.  So how is pain really relevant?


2:26 pm on Dec. 10, 2005 | Joined Dec. 2004 | 1101 Days Active
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ajm51987

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So instead of posting a link, and pointing out a few main points like a normal person would do, you just repost the entire page and expect everyone to read your pedantic psychobable?

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If you are a quadaplegiac and cannot feel your arms or legs, then where is the crime in someone simply carving them off of you?  Obviously they don't feel pain the same as 'we humans' do, so it must be the right thing to do.

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Quote: from abspwnsyou at 2:28 pm on Dec. 10, 2005

If you are a quadaplegiac and cannot feel your arms or legs, then where is the crime in someone simply carving them off of you?  Obviously they don't feel pain the same as 'we humans' do, so it must be the right thing to do.


Irrelevant.

I'm talking about consciousness.


2:29 pm on Dec. 10, 2005 | Joined Dec. 2004 | 1101 Days Active
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Either way, this thread should be used for making fun of the tard who posted this load of bunk, and doesn't seem very willing to back up any of it.

There are other ways to bring up such arguments of conciousness and all that that don't involve pushing this thread off topic.

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2:36 pm on Dec. 10, 2005 | Joined Mar. 2005 | 427 Days Active
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Quote: from abspwnsyou at 4:58 pm on Dec. 10, 2005

you are just full of crap.


you idiot...


My are you irrational.
It must be that you're afraid to face the truth; you need to be verbally agressive to come to a point.

tsk, tsk, tsk

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So what you really ment to say is that you have nothing to really refute and just want to show off to everyone how low of a lifeform you really are?

Then again, you are one of the ones who have been attempting to spam the intellectual forum.

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3:01 pm on Dec. 10, 2005 | Joined Mar. 2005 | 427 Days Active
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