Post edited at 7:47 pm on May 11, 2008 by TheOtherHorseman

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"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

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There is no cold, just lack of heat. So is the natural form of H2O water, or ice? In the universe, most places would be ice. In less than 1 percent of the universe there would be the water form. I'm not saying that there is water out there, just if there was water, the natural form would be ice.
So is water melted ice?
Or is ice frozen water?

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There is no such thing as cold or heat, just different velocities of particles and our descriptions of them. There is no such thing as a most "natural form" of H2O. "Liquid Water" / "Ice" do not exists as entities in themselves, but as noted earlier different manifestation and configurations of the same basic molecule.

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"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the
shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)

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Quote: from MattJ at 5:16 am on May 12, 2008

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There is no cold, just lack of heat. So is the natural form of H2O water, or ice? In the universe, most places would be ice. In less than 1 percent of the universe there would be the water form. I'm not saying that there is water out there, just if there was water, the natural form would be ice.  
 So is water melted ice?  
 Or is ice frozen water?

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There is no such thing as cold or heat, just different velocities of particles and our descriptions of them. There is no such thing as a most "natural form" of H2O. "Liquid Water" / "Ice" do not exists as entities in themselves, but as noted earlier different manifestation and configurations of the same basic molecule.

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you have a habit of doing this moridin.

there IS such a thing as cold and heat.
though, as you describe it, cold is the result of slow moving particles and heat is the result of fast moving particles.
the terms COLD and HEAT refer to these different states of molecules. to say they don't exist is like saying "air" doesn't exist, its just a collection of molecules.

You must learn the difference between terms and the physical phenomena they represent.

Your second point, however, i agree with.
there definitely is no NATURAL form for H2O. If you wanted to you could theoretically measure the amount of H2O in the atmosphere and compare it to that of the ocean and that of the polar caps and determine the most ABUNDANT form, but certainly no one could argue that water has X as its natural state.

the third point i disagree with again.
Liquid water may not exist as a physical state of matter, but it surely exists. the TERM liquid refers to that state of matter in which the molecules act a certain way to give them properties of a liquid.

This semantic way of discussing scientific phenomena of yours is really just pseudo-intellectualism. Sure the WORD liquid may not be a physical entity, but LIQUID --the actual physical representation of the word -- does exist.

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

Water is the liquid form of H2O. Whereas ice is the solid form of H2O.

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smd

"I can stop peeing I gots skillzthatkillz"

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Quote: from Moridin at 9:00 am on May 12, 2008

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Quote: from MattJ at 5:16 am on May 12, 2008

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There is no cold, just lack of heat. So is the natural form of H2O water, or ice? In the universe, most places would be ice. In less than 1 percent of the universe there would be the water form. I'm not saying that there is water out there, just if there was water, the natural form would be ice.
  So is water melted ice?
  Or is ice frozen water?

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 There is no such thing as cold or heat, just different velocities of particles and our descriptions of them. There is no such thing as a most "natural form" of H2O. "Liquid Water" / "Ice" do not exists as entities in themselves, but as noted earlier different manifestation and configurations of the same basic molecule.

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you have a habit of doing this moridin.

there IS such a thing as cold and heat.
though, as you describe it, cold is the result of slow moving particles and heat is the result of fast moving particles.  
the terms COLD and HEAT refer to these different states of molecules. to say they don't exist is like saying "air" doesn't exist, its just a collection of molecules.  

You must learn the difference between terms and the physical phenomena they represent.

Your second point, however, i agree with.
there definitely is no NATURAL form for H2O. If you wanted to you could theoretically measure the amount of H2O in the atmosphere and compare it to that of the ocean and that of the polar caps and determine the most ABUNDANT form, but certainly no one could argue that water has X as its natural state.

the third point i disagree with again.
Liquid water may not exist as a physical state of matter, but it surely exists. the TERM liquid refers to that state of matter in which the molecules act a certain way to give them properties of a liquid.  

This semantic way of discussing scientific phenomena of yours is really just pseudo-intellectualism. Sure the WORD liquid may not be a physical entity, but LIQUID --the actual physical representation of the word -- does exist.

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I second this. From an intellectual standpoint of course.

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I want David Blue.
Right now.

So the debate should then be a philosophical one. But scientific terms should still be involved. Cold is merely the absence of heat. So, what is water's naked form? Technically, having no heat is impossible, but ignoring that (for purposes of this argument), ice would be the natural form.

But it isn't really that simple. I think we have to define what natural is. Is natural implicit of naked or without anything else? Is natural the most common form, or the most familiar form to humanity? The answer changes based on what we consider 'natural'. 'Natural' is a relative term, so without defining it, there is no definite  answer to the question.

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"..You can check out any time you like but you can never leave..."

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Water is H2O in the liquid state.
Ice is H2O in the solid state.

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There is no "natural" form of H2O.  It's all relative to the surroundings where it is.  On EARTH, the natural form is water.  In the UNIVERSE, it's probably ice, but how the hell should I know?  That's pure speculation.  There could be a hot planet with a water vapor atmosphere.  I've read about a planet that possibly had water on it, but the massive strength of the gravitational pull crystalized the would-be water into an ice-like material.  What's that count as?

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"Say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude,
at least it's an ethos."
--Walter Sobchak