So the question is are libertarians inherently selfish? Are their beliefs rooted from their selfishness? And if so, is this kind of selfishness different from people of other political ideologies? And moreover, if they are selfish, what is it about their beliefs makes them selfish?

Post edited at 8:19 pm on June 12, 2008 by Bud2400

On a rando note, one of my biggest peeves is hearing how I should've supported Ron Paul being a libertarian and all.

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your whole life is leading up to this

Libertarianism is almost the polar opposite of selfishness for the most selfish thing to do is to mandate one's own beliefs on others via force.  Libertarians don't want to enforce morality in the bedroom or the boardroom on others they simply want to live and let live with the protection of the defense of their own and other's rights in place.

Now if you ask whether liberarianism encourages or celebrates selfishness in general, I would say that this may be true but it misunderstands the manifestation of selfishness in every person. If individualism and a fierce demand for pesonal freedom is selfishness, then yes this may true. The question is, is this really always rooted in selfishness and does it always mean the abandonment to the needs of a community?

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All men and women are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality.

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In fact, judging from the lessons of history in many socialist countries, socialism often encourages greater selfishness simply because quite often people resent being forced to share profit and wealth.

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Of course, this is more of a by product of socialism rather than something which socialism advocates, so I wouldn't consider it fair to say that socialists are selfish for that.  Just as I don't think it's fair to say libertarians are selfish because there may be starving homeless people on the street as a result of no welfare as a result of an entirely libertarian system of government.
 

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If individualism and a fierce demand for pesonal freedom is selfishness, then yes this may true.  The question is, is this really always rooted in selfishness and does it always mean the abandonment to the needs of a community?

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If anything, libertarianism advocates for a stronger local community and a weaker statewide or national community (generally the higher up it is, the less power it should have).

When I composed the question, I've noticed many people saying that libertarians only care about themselves.  They want to withdraw all of the US's overseas bases because they don't care about the rest of the world.  They want to get rid of welfare and all these taxes because they want to keep their money.  Things like that which libertarians advocate.

The way I see it, libertarians are not necessarily selfish.  Trying to uphold freedoms for everybody is certainly not selfish.  Although I will admit some taxes, especially flat taxes, are less fair to the poor than they are to the rich.  A larger portion of a poor person's income will go to paying that tax than a rich person's income.

At the same time, a flat tax could be argued to be fair because it taxes all individuals in the same exact way.  It's honestly a tough call.

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No.  If one choose the third option I need to point out the way the question asked rules this out as an answer since one cannot base generalizations on individuality - that answer would be best acknowledge as "No".

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It's certainly possible. Personally, I don't think upholding the kind of rights that libertarians advocate is selfish, but there may be selfish reasons for wanting to advocate for those rights.

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Libertarianism is almost the polar opposite of selfishness for the most selfish thing to do is to mandate one's own beliefs on others via force.  Libertarians don't want to enforce morality in the bedroom or the boardroom on others they simply want to live and let live with the protection of the defense of their own and other's rights in place.

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Agreed wholeheartedly, although remember, people can support these things for more selfish reasons. For example, I don't want to give any of my money to anyone, so I'll advocate for less taxes. It's ironic when you think about it - supporting unselfishness for selfish reasons.  But then again, that is that person's right, is it not?  But does that mean that it's not selfish?

Of course, I doubt very many libertarians actually support libertarianism for that reason, so it wouldn't be fair to take that generalization and apply it to all libertarians like so many have.

Post edited at 12:40 am on June 13, 2008 by Bud2400

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Selfishness is a basic human trait so I doubt even socialists are less selfish than libertarians. In fact, judging from the lessons of history in many socialist countries, socialism often encourages greater selfishness simply because quite often people resent being forced to share profit and wealth.

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I'm not a 100% sure I agree with your sentiments.  In some ways, I think humans are basically symbiotic but the problem is that financial systems that we have in our world encourage the self-fulfilling prophecy of selfishness.  The human desire for interaction even in our society tells me that our happiness is more than just ourselves.

The trouble with measurement is it becomes more relative and it would be hard to compare a non-financial system (where oh where) to the financial systems of the world.

tk

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"Argentum qui amat, cum argento numquam satiabitur." ~ Solomon

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I'm not a 100% sure I agree with your sentiments. In some ways, I think humans are basically symbiotic but the problem is that financial systems that we have in our world encourage the self-fulfilling prophecy of selfishness.

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Eventually there needs to be a balance between what we may view as "selfish" interests" and the need to share resources and skills within a social group. The truth is we as humans cannot always be completely devoted to the demands of a social group. The other truth is that we cannot be completely independant from it either.

In fact, even the fiercest of libertarian individualists recognizes the benefit of using the resources and assistance from a community. They just would prefer that assistance to come from people they know than from a governmental authority, an anonymous body which divulges assistance and favors based on impersonal and sometimes inadequate considerations.

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The trouble with measurement is it becomes more relative and it would be hard to compare a non-financial system (where oh where) to the financial systems of the world.

tk

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Post edited at 8:23 am on June 13, 2008 by Power Girl

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All men and women are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality.

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I wouldn't consider it fair to say that socialists are selfish for that.

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If anything, libertarianism advocates for a stronger local community and a weaker statewide or national community (generally the higher up it is, the less power it should have).

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Another point which must be made is that in some cases, federal overview is necessary for the well-being of all members in a community. One of the limitations of systems favoring local interests over national interests is often in the treatment of those who fail to fit in entirely within a given community. People of an ethnic minority for example, or who various reasons have become pariahs or detached from a community often suffer disproportionately because they might not always be seen as fulfilling the requirement or the interests of that community.

Locally based systems sometimes suffer from a bit of short-shightedness when it comes to dealing with minorities, foreigners, outsiders or simply those who fall on hard times and cannot contribute. Federal systems take care of those local "outcasts" and makes sure they are seen as contributing and valuable members of society at a more general scale.

Yet another reason for the need of federal systems is the sharing of resources and labor beteen different communities for the benefit of all.

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They want to get rid of welfare and all these taxes because they want to keep their money. Things like that which libertarians advocate.

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If more libertarians pointed out the need for actual greater sharing at a local level and explained the disadvantages and limitation of federal welfare systems rather than go into petty considerations about saving a few tax dollars, more people would see what true libertarianism can be all about.


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All men and women are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality.

I would suspect the OP who created this topic understands that those opinions they've heard on Ron Paul's proposed Foreign Policy is just that, an opinion.

I can go into detail as to why that doesn't make Ron Paul selfish, but I wont. (Oops I lied, I will.) I'll only say he's strongly connected with the "Zeitgeist/Loose Change"-Movement. And by his understanding (Whether movements are justified or not) he would be returning freedom and control to the Citizens who's rights he is responsible for.

Is that Selfish? Well, it could be, depending on his Motive. I'll give him the benefit of a doubt, and say that it's a benevolent notion.

Libertarians are selfish in a sense that they want it all. The Advantages of Left winged ideals and the Advantages of Right winged Ideals.

No down sides. Libertarians could be described as idealists, you could say. While I believe that anything is possible, including the installment of a Government that propels the Average Citizen forward in his pursuit of happiness (instead of only granting him the Right to that pursuit) I am not Idealistic in my belief that this change will not be made in my life time.

Yes, Libertarians are selfish, but they are selfish for everyone's right to be selfish, flourish, prosper, and gratify that selfishness.

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means
What you think it means." -Inigo Montoya

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i dont know about libertarians but cnservatives are the most selfish fucks around yeah.

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I don't think you know what you're talking about.

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means
What you think it means." -Inigo Montoya