I hear a lot of talk from Europeans about isolating Ireland and those who won't ratify Lisbon by creating a core group of EU member states who have ratified Lisbon and become more integrated, while leaving out the other group who don't wish to agree to those terms.  Essentially a "two-speed" European Union.

I also hear crap about how the European Union will probably just cry about it and come out with the same thing in another couple years, and try to push everybody into ratifying it (like they did this time) rather than have it decided by a popular referendum.  Of course, you'd think the EU would learn and make their treaties more clear and concise so that it's not overly complicated and doesn't take a law degree to decipher it, so that people in EU countries aren't skeptical of these proposed treaties and don't shoot them down every time it's to be decided by a popular referendum.

Anybody care to speculate?

I do, however, like that there are Three Presidents.

i don't like the the European Central Bank being established as an Official Institution. Banks still aren't run how they should be and they basically have nothing to do with the Government, other than that's where they get most of their money... Yes, I don't like that at all.

They got rid of the confusing pillar thingy. Thank God.

Quote: Bud2400

---

Of course, you'd think the EU would learn and make their treaties more clear and concise so that it's not overly complicated and doesn't take a law degree to decipher it, so that people in EU countries aren't skeptical of these proposed treaties and don't shoot them down every time it's to be decided by a popular referendum.

---

Or, maybe they do understand it, and they're just skeptical, or unsatisfied with the way things are set up?

-------
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means
What you think it means." -Inigo Montoya

---

Now that Ireland has shot down the Treaty of Lisbon and any real hope for a consolidation of all member states of the European Union in the near future, what is Europe going to do?

I hear a lot of talk from Europeans about isolating Ireland and those who won't ratify Lisbon by creating a core group of EU member states who have ratified Lisbon and become more integrated, while leaving out the other group who don't wish to agree to those terms. Essentially a "two-speed" European Union.

I also hear crap about how the European Union will probably just cry about it and come out with the same thing in another couple years, and try to push everybody into ratifying it (like they did this time) rather than have it decided by a popular referendum. Of course, you'd think the EU would learn and make their treaties more clear and concise so that it's not overly complicated and doesn't take a law degree to decipher it, so that people in EU countries aren't skeptical of these proposed treaties and don't shoot them down every time it's to be decided by a popular referendum.

Anybody care to speculate?

---

they r going to have to legally throw out the treaty.. its gone..
and if they dont other smaller countires will not ractify their constitution.
the eu is very undemocratic..
i dont know how they expect small counties to agree when the are loosing thier commisioner for 5yrs out of every 15!!!!!

its redicelous. (sp.)
jose baroso is an aimeadian!!!
he is so annoying..and how the fuk did he get that job... i never voted him in?

---

Or, maybe they do understand it, and they're just skeptical, or unsatisfied with the way things are set up?

---

Realize that I was mainly referring to the common Irish citizen. That treaty is well over 100 pages, I believe, and takes quite a bit of professional analysis to decipher. Usually the summary of these analyses would be available to the public, and it surely was, but from everything I've seen on the "yes" and "no" sides, they exaggurated many things to their convenience by quite a bit (and this is especially doable through a long document where there's many different things to quote).

This makes it tough for the average person to verify the claims for themselves. In a sense, I think a more clear and concise document like the US constitution (though far from perfect, but understandable by the average American) would be far more effective for the European Union. Suddenly I think we'd see a lot of skepticism toward such treaties disappear (but bear in mind that this is all speculation. From what I understand of the Irish, they're very pro-EU but wary of expanding the EU government in a way that would be disadvantageous to them, as anyone should be).

Post edited at 11:58 pm on June 18, 2008 by Bud2400

---

they r going to have to legally throw out the treaty.. its gone..

---

The EU seems pretty intent on getting as many countries as possible to ratify the treaty.  The UK just ratified the treaty.  It doesn't seem at all unlikely that if the vast majority of the EU ratifies the Treaty of Lisbon that Ireland will be pressured into ratifying it themselves, or the EU coming up with some special provision for Ireland which would force it to remain separate from the "core" member countries of the EU as a result for Ireland's rejection of Lisbon.

---

and if they dont other smaller countires will not ractify their constitution.

---

I believe the Czech Republic is very reluctant on signing it, but so far, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Denmark, Finland, Slovenia, and Slovakia has ratified the Treaty of Lisbon - all countries as small as Ireland, if not smaller, in terms of populaton.

---

the eu is very undemocratic..

---

I believe the EU seems much more into representative democracy - where you elect an official and they appoint positions and decide on things (such as ratifications of treaties) on the behalf of the people.  This is still democracy.

---

i dont know how they expect small counties to agree when the are loosing thier commisioner for 5yrs out of every 15!!!!!

---

Small countries are ratifying the treaty.  What do you make of that?

Personally, I think the big difference is whether the treaties are being ratified or voted on by referendum.

---

Quote: from harrypothead at 11:37 am on June 18, 2008

---

they r going to have to legally throw out the treaty.. its gone..

---

The EU seems pretty intent on getting as many countries as possible to ratify the treaty. The UK just ratified the treaty. It doesn't seem at all unlikely that if the vast majority of the EU ratifies the Treaty of Lisbon that Ireland will be pressured into ratifying it themselves, or the EU coming up with some special provision for Ireland which would force it to remain separate from the "core" member countries of the EU as a result for Ireland's rejection of Lisbon.

---

and if they dont other smaller countires will not ractify their constitution.

---

I believe the Czech Republic is very reluctant on signing it, but so far, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Denmark, Finland, Slovenia, and Slovakia has ratified the Treaty of Lisbon - all countries as small as Ireland, if not smaller, in terms of populaton.
 

---

the eu is very undemocratic..

---

I believe the EU seems much more into representative democracy - where you elect an official and they appoint positions and decide on things (such as ratifications of treaties) on the behalf of the people. This is still democracy.

---

i dont know how they expect small counties to agree when the are loosing thier commisioner for 5yrs out of every 15!!!!!

---

Small countries are ratifying the treaty. What do you make of that?

Personally, I think the big difference is whether the treaties are being ratified or voted on by referendum.

---

---

Quote: from Bud2400 at 12:12 am on June 19, 2008

---

Quote: from harrypothead at 11:37 am on June 18, 2008

---

they r going to have to legally throw out the treaty.. its gone..

---

 

 The EU seems pretty intent on getting as many countries as possible to ratify the treaty.  The UK just ratified the treaty.  It doesn't seem at all unlikely that if the vast majority of the EU ratifies the Treaty of Lisbon that Ireland will be pressured into ratifying it themselves, or the EU coming up with some special provision for Ireland which would force it to remain separate from the "core" member countries of the EU as a result for Ireland's rejection of Lisbon.  

 

---

and if they dont other smaller countires will not ractify their constitution.

---

 

 I believe the Czech Republic is very reluctant on signing it, but so far, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Denmark, Finland, Slovenia, and Slovakia has ratified the Treaty of Lisbon - all countries as small as Ireland, if not smaller, in terms of populaton.  
   
 

---

the eu is very undemocratic..

---

 

 I believe the EU seems much more into representative democracy - where you elect an official and they appoint positions and decide on things (such as ratifications of treaties) on the behalf of the people.  This is still democracy.  

 

---

i dont know how they expect small counties to agree when the are loosing thier commisioner for 5yrs out of every 15!!!!!

---

 

 Small countries are ratifying the treaty.  What do you make of that?  

 Personally, I think the big difference is whether the treaties are being ratified or voted on by referendum.

---

---

yes they are very d4etermined to keep going with the treaty..
the labour party said that the treaty should be thrown out...and they were a yes party.
i voted yes, but was discusted on the behavoiur of other european countries such as france and germany seeking legal information about how to exclude ireland..even before the vote was announced!! and joze baroso is a fucker... i hate him.. and will not enter a "democratic" eu as long as he is there. he showed complete ignorance to ireland before and especially after the vote.

about what i think about other small countries ractifying it..tbh i couldnt care less ..
ireland has nothing in common with eastern europe.. and tbh i dont know where half the countries in europe r lol!!

ps, i didnt think that this would be reported in america!

---

i voted yes, but was discusted on the behavoiur of other european countries such as france and germany seeking legal information about how to exclude ireland..even before the vote was announced!!

---

Well, you have to admit, it was pretty obvious that Ireland was going to vote a big no to the treaty. Everybody else (at least each country's representatives) in the EU wants to go by Lisbon's terms while Ireland doesn't. It doesn't seem surprising or unreasonable that most of the rest of the EU would want to move on without Ireland.

---

and joze baroso is a fucker... i hate him.. and will not enter a "democratic" eu as long as he is there. he showed complete ignorance to ireland before and especially after the vote.

---

The EU, overall, seems more geared toward building a union which collectively benefits all of Europe (which in turn benefits the larger nations more) as opposed to one which benefits each individual country (which would benefit nations like Ireland more). It's a rough balance to find, but I agree that it's rather idiotic when some Europeans have said things like the Irish should be kicked out of the EU for their vote, the Irish are trying to destroy the EU, etc.

From personal experience, I find many continental Europeans, on the whole, think more for the collective benefit than the individual one, whereas the Irish (and the British for that matter, too) tend to be more of the opposite. So it doesn't surprise me to make claims like this because Ireland didn't sacrifice itself for the "greater good."

I'm not totally even sure why all of Europe would want to become more politically integrated than it already is. I mean, I suppose I understand, but with a common foreign policy comes a common military at some point, and with a common military comes political integration on the level you have in the United States. If Europe were ever to do this, they'd wind up getting themselves involved in the same stupid overseas shit that the US does on a regular basis, costing Europe billions upon billions. The independent, but economically integrated, nations right now seem far more efficient.

---

about what i think about other small countries ractifying it..tbh i couldnt care less ..  
ireland has nothing in common with eastern europe.. and tbh i dont know where half the countries in europe r lol!!

---

Sad. I could name just about every country in all of Europe without a map and still tell you exactly where each one is, and probably even include a little history for each one, too. And this is an American you're talking to.

---

ps, i didnt think that this would be reported in america!

---

There are a couple side articles on it in most US newspapers, but for the most part, it's not. I just happen to read European news when I notice something interesting is going on in that part of the world (not to mention, it helps that I know quite a few people from places like Ireland, the UK, the Czech Republic, Germany, France, Finland, Denmark, Romania, etc.).

Post edited at 3:46 pm on June 19, 2008 by Bud2400

Like I said, one way or another, Ireland is going to have to accept something.  The EU won't stop pressuring Ireland until it does.

News Article

Quote: from Kokasion at 8:51 am on June 17, 2008

---

Or, maybe they do understand it, and they're just skeptical, or unsatisfied with the way things are set up?

---

Just wanted to provide a little evidence for my assertion from the article I provided...

---

According to a Eurobarometer poll conducted following the Irish vote, 76% of voters believed that the treaty could be re-negotiated to give Ireland a better deal. those who voted 'No', 22% said it was because they did not have enough information on the content of the treaty. Other reasons cited were fears about losing Irish identity and concern about Ireland's military neutrality.

---

Although no where near the majority, 22% is a lot.  While uniting Europe is a complicated process, it would serve the EU well if they would actually make these treaties much more clear and concise so that the common person can understand it.

Of course, since the EU is trying to push everyone to ratify Lisbon instead of bring it to referendum, it's no surprise why they didn't give a shit about that.

---

Hmm, looks like Ireland is going to have to work things out. It doesn't look like the EU is going to take no for an answer unless it absolutely has to. A second referendum for Ireland in the future looks pretty likely.

Like I said, one way or another, Ireland is going to have to accept something. The EU won't stop pressuring Ireland until it does.

News Article  

Quote: from Kokasion at 8:51 am on June 17, 2008

---

Or, maybe they do understand it, and they're just skeptical, or unsatisfied with the way things are set up?

---

Just wanted to provide a little evidence for my assertion from the article I provided...

---

According to a Eurobarometer poll conducted following the Irish vote, 76% of voters believed that the treaty could be re-negotiated to give Ireland a better deal. those who voted 'No', 22% said it was because they did not have enough information on the content of the treaty. Other reasons cited were fears about losing Irish identity and concern about Ireland's military neutrality.

---

Although no where near the majority, 22% is a lot. While uniting Europe is a complicated process, it would serve the EU well if they would actually make these treaties much more clear and concise so that the common person can understand it.

Of course, since the EU is trying to push everyone to ratify Lisbon instead of bring it to referendum, it's no surprise why they didn't give a shit about that.

---

did you hear the news yesterday,.. it is likely that the chez republic will not rectify the traety

Now there's talk about a second referendum, but personally, I don't know what's going to happen. A second referendum is just going to annoy a lot of people and will give ammo to people who hate the EU, just like the second referendum for the Nice Treaty. I would like to see a second referendum, because a shockingly high amount of people admitted to voting no just because they hadn't a clue what was going on in the treaty or because of Cóir's astonishing lie about opening Ireland's laws to abortion (Ireland's constitutional right not to legalise abortion is very clearly acknowledged and respected in the Maastricht Treaty - the EU has no competence whatsoever to infringe on our abortion laws). Maybe a second referendum would allow people to research it further and make a proper, informed decidion. However, if the people vote no, then Brian Cowen is fairly much up you-know-what creek, which would be quite sad, because I think Brian Cowen has a lot of promise as Taoiseach.

It looks like a second referendum is the only way forward, but in truth, I don't know what will happen.

-------
"If you smile at me, I will understand, because that is something
Everybody everywhere does in the same language" - David Crosby

---

Different noises have been coming out lately. First, Brian Cowen says that the Lisbon Treaty is Plan B and that there will be no second referendum. Eamon Gilmore even says that the treaty is dead, and the political uncertainty begins. At the end of the day, if the Lisbon Treaty really is dead, nobody has a clue where to go from there.

Now there's talk about a second referendum, but personally, I don't know what's going to happen. A second referendum is just going to annoy a lot of people and will give ammo to people who hate the EU, just like the second referendum for the Nice Treaty. I would like to see a second referendum, because a shockingly high amount of people admitted to voting no just because they hadn't a clue what was going on in the treaty or because of Cóir's astonishing lie about opening Ireland's laws to abortion (Ireland's constitutional right not to legalise abortion is very clearly acknowledged and respected in the Maastricht Treaty - the EU has no competence whatsoever to infringe on our abortion laws). Maybe a second referendum would allow people to research it further and make a proper, informed decidion. However, if the people vote no, then Brian Cowen is fairly much up you-know-what creek, which would be quite sad, because I think Brian Cowen has a lot of promise as Taoiseach.

It looks like a second referendum is the only way forward, but in truth, I don't know what will happen.

---

a second referendum is most likely..i think we have till october to decide how to move on..
ps..brian cowen has very little promise as taoiseach..he is so arragant(sp).. do u watch leders questions? he never answers the questions, and threatening to silence the opposition isnt exactly going to go down well if that behaviour is maintained

Let's hope...

Post edited at 10:37 am on June 22, 2008 by Faoiseamh

-------
"If you smile at me, I will understand, because that is something
Everybody everywhere does in the same language" - David Crosby