Did the holocaust actually happen? -- LiveWire Teen Forums

Quote: from Bud2400 at 9:20 pm on June 11, 2008

Also, remember that it might have been used to burn bodies that died of disease in the labor camps in order to prevent the spread to disease

Yeah it could. But what about the witness account? What about the number of bodies burned? what about the showers with gas coming out of them?

What makes you think I only doubt the holocaust?

well let's have it man. What else you doubt?

To be honest, the holocaust is the one genocide out of them all that we're all confronted with the most.

yeah sure but we also hear alot about hiroshima and I dont know any hiroshima denier. You'd think there'd be more of those since it shows the US for screwing that one up. But nobody is denying it.

As far as the Civil War went, there were records of people who were in the Union and Confederate armies, as well as body counts.

Well here too there are accounts from the holocaust survivors and from the nazis and the body counts.

Again, they disregard any migrations that may have occurred either immediately before or after the holocaust, hence why it's unreliable.

if you think the data is "unreliable" because of migration in the holocaust we can do the same for the number of dead in the civil war and the number of slaves in the south. fact is its even worse to do count back then.

I never denied people dying in the camps.

you didn't maybe but a lot of other fuckers do. So im talking to them too. The whole topic is about that remember?

I merely question whether it's as much as 6 million.

Same with Hiroshima, but no one question whether there was 103,000 deaths there. Nobody goes oh wait it was "just' 30,000 or something. I mean sure you can question numbers but as I said you got to have a base for that. The migration hing you mention may tell that maybe popl could have been counted wrong but it doesn't mean that its totally 100% wrong either,

How can you actually report a total of 6 million people getting gassed or whatever?

It says 6 million jews have died as a result of the nazi system. it does not say 6 million were ALL gassed.

But some WERE gassed. A lot of them.

You can report gassings, but you can't report a total of 6 million people over many different camps.

The nazis kept some pretty good record of who they killed you know. Its documented all over.

Trauma has a tendency to skew peoples' memories.

Sure. But nobody says that about the civil war or the American relovution. Nobody says oh memory was skewed so Hiroshima didn't really happen or the Inquisition wasn't that bad,

Now, the holocaust was quite a bit different because it took place over a period of years rather than just a day.

Ok do you believe in the crusades? because that happened over centuries and nobody goes oh the crusades didn't happen.

But when they talk about the gassings that occurred, of which they never saw (because they were never gassed) nor did they clean the bodies up, I get skeptical.

1. There were a lot of furnaces going round the clock

2. They saw people going into a shower room and nobody comes back

3. The GIs who opened up the camps found shower rooms connected to gassing tanks

4. Some survivors had been recruited to work on the shower rooms and shoveled dead bodies,

you get some reason to doubt everything these testimonials say.

No you don't. You can have reason to doubt a few facts and details here and there, But you got NO reason in hell to doubt the testimonies entirely unless its becaus you think jews are all a bunch of dirty liars or believe they try to fake the data to make it worse than it was.

When I say "hard proof," I generally mean proof that isn't subject to very much error. Scientific tests, census data (except in the case of the holocaust for the reasons I described above), etc. all count as this.

Theres no real reason to doubt the holocaust census data more. The nazis were fucking good book keepers. They had the numbers right. Most of the Holocaust data comes from THEM.

You mean the hundreds of thousands of civilians of Dresden and Tokyo dying from being firebombed by the Allies?

yeah sure! but apparently you believe MORE the Dresden stuff and the firebombing deaths than the Holocaust deaths.

Remember, census figures and body counts for soldiers. These are imperative to estimating the actual number of deaths in a war or massacre.

It doesnt have to be just soldier. the victims of Hiroshima were civilians we still can count them. Same with Dresden or iraq or or civilians that get massacred. Unless you want to close your eyes to it like bush does for Iraqi civilians. So of course he desn't count them so nobody can remember them.

some possible errors in the figure of 6 million dead Jews which have not been properly addressed.

Theres some possible errors in ALL history accounts. Why make it more a big deal for the 6 million figure? If it is 5 million or 4 million what does it fucking CHANGE about anything?

Why are you criticizing me for trying to figure out exactly how many people died? Is it really such a bad thing to analyze the evidence we have available and point out possible errors in them?

No but its wird to be all fixated about the number like if you prove that it was not 6 million then you can prove that ALL that survivors say was bullshit like what you imply.

The fact that the holocaust has become so scrutinized over the last 50 years

That is a total lie. its been rehashed back and forth and the detailes have been dissected starting in 1945.

, in many European countries, gets you thrown in jail.

Its only been since 1990s that this is true. before that there was plenty of analysis and questions and people have gone into it over and over.

My skepticism mainly comes from the fact that it's difficult for people to freely express

Well its only a recent thing and I agree its bullshit, but just some people went into stupid mode doesnt mean its less true.

That's pretty easy to prove since we do have videos of that and can read plenty about the environment on the moon which supports the details shown in that video.

some ppl say those videos have been faked or show some parts of earth instead of the moon. they show that pic with the flag and some "wind" that supposed to be going in the flag and say its proof the whole thing is fake.

I mean when people REFUSE to believe the truth they gonna find ANY excuse to doubt it anyway.

Again, why do they have to be gassings?

Maybe becuase some gas tanks were found connected to showers and people wondered WTF was that for if not to do mass murder.

I've said many times that many in the labors camps died of diseases, which is honestly no surprise given the conditions of those camps.

Nobody says that did not happened of course. But the gassing ALSO happened and I don't see why anyone would trip on that if theres been photos and reports from GIs about it.

Advice: Never take testimonials at face value.

Sure so the civil war survivors were just wrong is that it? Heck the vietnam vets were stoned all day long who knows of they reall killed vietnames there? maybe they was having a party there, Maybe McCain wasn't really a vietnam war hero. I mean all we got is just testimony.

The fact that many of these testimonials occurred many, many years after the holocaust just makes their memories of the events even more questionable. Lots of psychological trama can skew their memories of the holocaust.

well we can say the same about the civil war. I mean just because the testimony was taken may years laters dont mean its fake either.

I mean I did a google search on "skeptic proof civil war" Nothing. "skeptic proof Hiroshima" practically nothing. "skeptic proof crusades" zilch.

But "skeptic proof holocaust" and its like a deluge.

So dont give me any bullshit about ppl need to have "proof" in history. Nobody gives a fuck about proof on other historical events. Only the Holocaust.

Now why don't we hold holocaust testimonials to the same standard, I wonder?

you gonna drag McCain in a court of law to prove he really was tortured by vietcongs? I mean his wounds could have been self-inflicted right?

If they really did, then how did so many survive?

maybe jews were more resistant than the nazis thought. maybe they manage to escape. even if you kill all the old ppl and the sick you still havea good deal of ppl left. and you said yourself they wanted to keep some for slave labor. and the war ended before they could totally finish the final solution.

The Nazis didn't have to endure the death marches.

They wanted some of them for labor force. The stronger survive and that what they wanted. seperate the strong from the weak "naturally". You read the docs right?

Intentionally killing off their slave labor force would hinder that

Killing everyone who wasn't fit like the ol dand weak and kids means they dont hve to feed them or wait until they die.

But notice that they all weren't just gassed. Why is that?

because they wanted to keep the strongest as slave. You said it yourself. The weak and the old they gassed to get rid of them.

Intentional to what extent? To see the Jews starve for the lulz?

you read the wanswe protocol or you deliberately acting stupid?
They wanted to starve hem because they thought the jews was a bad race that was multiplying too much and would be bad for the aryan world. Starving them makes the strong ones weak enough to control them and eliminates the weak ones,

But thus far, there has been no proof of a Nazi party policy to kill all Jews. This is key.

Read the Wansee Protocol. Otherwise su the fuck up.

Eh, very different situations to be quite honest. The tragedy we're talking about occurred over a period of about 4 or 5 years. The tragedy of the Native Americans began right at the beginning of European contact to fairly recently in history.

So? you said yourself it occured over many years so its all "blurry" right?

What makes you think that I have not read a lot of what is written about the holocaust?

because you dont even know about the Wannsee protocol? Because you haven't given links to any of the stuff you talking about? Because all you do is doubt based on some weird appeal to your right to doubt and some strange BS about the Nazi census being somehow more doubtful than any other census in history?

And what makes you think that holocaust denial was any more accepted in the 1970s than they are now?

Accepted or not it was legal. If anything had come out of it that was decent and scientific theres no way anybody can crush that down.

Furthermore, even if it does have anything to do with legislating the truth, it shows nothing but intolerance of criticism and holding the truth to honest standards.

yeah well tell that to the native americans who been denied truth in their history for centuries.

What information can I bring? The burden of proof rests on those suggesting that the number of Jews who died were as high as 6 million.

I didn't know there was burden of proof on 103,000 people who died in Hiroshima, I mean I see nobody saying no one died in Hiroshima. I see no one saying no one died because of the crusades or the inquisition. I see no one saying oh wait no one died in Kosovo massacres. Nobody says "prove to me x number died in the Civil war instead of Y".

If you want real discussion and thinking to happen, if you really want the truth then you gotta come up with a bit more than" the numbers were wrong because ppl was migrating". You gotta show hard facts that contest the accepted numbers. And then ppl can answer back.

And when they do show their evidence, I, as I have explained in this topic, have pointed out the errors in the evidence

Theres a million more possible errors when we talk about the crusads or the black death or the inquisition. But nobody contest the facts there. Unless they have hard fact and evidence of their own to say "ok the history that was given was wrong because..." All the deniers or doubters say is "6 millions lol" or "jews are liars" or "census blablabla".

The one making the claim always must defend their position

well they have and it still not accepted. its like the moon landing thing. no matter how much ppl are gonna say it happend and show proof some idiots are gonna say it was faked or it was a lie or theres not enough proof.

Thus when I question the claim of 6 million Jews being killed in the holocaust, it is not up to me to dismantle it

you still have to have a valid basis for it. like in science you have to have a counter-example. something concrete and real that contradicts the given claim or puts it into doubt,

The scientists who contest a theory dont just go "oh its bullshit because theres not enough proof". They use some example, some data, some piece of evidence to say "ok then how do you explain this?"

why have I not seen anybody present any convincing evidence or information?

thats because you refuse to be convinced, plenty of ppl who are honest and want the the truth have been convinced. you go to the memorial places, you listen to the testimonies and you can be as convinced as listening to ppl who talk about the civil war. not more not less.

I'm merely pointing out the errors in the evidence for the number of 6 million provided and suggesting that according to these errors, the actual number must be smaller.

1. the errors cant be that big because the naxzis were pretty fixated on numbers and being accurate

2. its not "must" be smaller. its "could" be smaller.

3. the numbers could also be bigger.

Post edited at 8:56 pm on June 13, 2008 by jakelong

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

Quote: from Bud2400 at 5:34 pm on June 12, 2008

I doubt a Jewish uprising in these camps was that big a concern. I mean, what did the Jews have to fight with?

They might have refused to go easily to the gas chambers.

The majority of society did not care that Jews and other groups were rounded up and thrown into slave labor at these camps

No they didn't but they might have cared if they learned that ppl was burned alive especially kids.

This wasn't a secret, and if the Nazis truly meant to kill all of them, I don't see why they'd keep it a secret either.

Well it wasn't really a secret that they hated jews but the method and the scale was.

After all, they advocated killing all communists, which weren't necessarily traitors to the German government

They talked about communists as traitors though. And you admit that jews were seen as traitors. What do we do with traitors to the state?

It wouldn't have been too difficult for the Nazis to justify the deaths of these women and children as they'd probably link all of this to genetics, hence why they wouldn't hide it.

yes they would hide because they couldn't justify killing them like they can justify killing communists.

There probably would have been more disapproval among the German nationals, but I can't imagine it being anything that would create a potential uprising.

its not uprising as much as general condemnation. using what they think are leeches as slave labor is one thing. burning ppl alive in ovens and gassing them is something different. why dont you get that? its basic.

Like even today I could say yeah lets take the money of rich fucks and have them sweat for their bread or something. but that dont mean I want to kill them or massacre them.

but that I am suspicious of any testimony for the same reasons any court of law would be (I explained this in my last post).

nobody does that for civil war survivors or hiroshima survivors. nobody treats them like they have to prove what they say in a court of law. Why is that?

Moreover, just because you find bones in furnaces doesn't mean people were burned in them alive or even corpses which died from gassings were burned in them.

see? you doing it again you explaining stuff away instead of seeing it all as part of the same thing, No it dont mean ppl were burned aive but witnesses have seen them, nazis have admitted they did it and the bnes were found.

What else you need?

but the fact that you can interpret it this way with as few problems as saying that people were gassed and then burned in them leads me to believe that there isn't enough evidence for the latter assertion

Well you can interpret a lot of other historical facts in all kinds of ways. Usually nobody puts much stock in wild crackpot ideas unless the evidence they dig out really disprove something. I mean we could say nobody was burned as a witch in salem because there was no brooms found in the ashes or something like that.

The fact that you can interpret history one way or the other doesnt mean that you gotta believe the skeptics. As I said I dont get any real result when I google for "skeptic proof Salem". But I get a zillion for the holocaust. But the salem ting was even further back in time, theres no like a ton of evidence for it and not even survivors talking live to us about it. So what makes you think it really happened?

That's just simply bullshit.

Oh yeah? go and read the wannsee protocol thats exactly what they said.

Remember, little kids have little hands. These little hands are very useful for putting together very small parts that an adult with larger hands would have a very difficult time doing.

maybe useful for some things. but for others if they get sick or are too weak and you hav a bunch of allies going after your ass you willing to get rid of the extra help.

At first yeah. but when the shit hit the fan the nazis didn't care about anything else but qhos healthy and survives and who can be elminated.

I know all about the Wannsee Conference. I see all this crap

yeah you call the protocol crap. yeah why Im not surprised.

They did say "treat all Jews accordingly," but honestly, how out of context can you take "treat accordingly" and still make it look accurate?

you put that together with the fact they didn't want them to breed and survive too much and what you got exactly?

I'd imagine "treat accordingly" meant something more along the lines

thats YOUR interpretation yeah.

I certainly see no evidence of the Nazis advocating for death from this alone and to say they are is dishonest at best.

Hey let's read what they really mean from their texts ok?
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Fundamentally, one must decide whether or not to bring the Jews in Germany (as well as those of Jewish descent) together organizationally. Many plans announced so far propose to bring the Jews together in a federation so that they can be kept under watch, and influenced. All of these proposals are fundamentally in error. Were one to establish a federation of the Jews, whether under some kind of Jewish overseer or in some sort of federation or other innocent-looking structure, the Jews would have an eternal legal anchor in Germany, a way to present their wishes, a tool for their goals, a legal way to secure secret links.

Ok that rules out your idea that jews just had to be kept under watch.

All proposals that include a permanent presence, a permanent regulation of the Jews in Germany, do not solve the Jewish Question, for they do not eliminate the Jews from Germany (denn sie l�sen die Juden nicht von Deutschland). And that is what we want to do

Instead, one must find an affirmative solution that frees Europe of wandering Jewish masses.

The Jew is the parasite of humanity. He can be a parasite for an individual person, a social parasite for whole peoples, and the world parasite of humanity.

One of Jewry's particular characteristics is a dislike of physical labor. His physical appearance alone did not predestine him to physical labor. But as the result of generations of inbreeding and of his racial mixture, the Jew made this his goal. He would rather trade, leaving work to others.

Who is the Jew? The Jew is also a product of his drives, and obeys his natural law. The F�hrer calls this "Lucifer's tragedy"! That is so! We call destructive elements in nature parasites. They are creatures who can no longer survive on their own, due to the atrophy of their vital organs, such as their lungs, digestive system, reproductive organs, or that cannot move. They are no longer able to secure their own food and digest it, and are therefore dependent on other living plants or animals. They devour their hosts. They fall like locusts on them, suck their life away, destroy them. Their tragedy is that, in doing so, they destroy themselves in the end. Nature always helps. When parasites gain the upper hand, they devour each other.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/pesthauch.htm

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/weltparasit.htm

Ok so accroding to nazis:

1. jews are parasites to humanity (not just germans)
2. they not good with manual labor
3. they spread all over the world
4. they cant really be put in a federation under german rule because they might get out of it anyway.

So what you think they wanted to do with them? Send them to mars?

Here is the Nazi answer:

There is thus in this struggle against Judah only a clear either/or. Any half measure leads to one's own destruction. Judah and its world must die if humanity wants to live; there is no other choice than to fight a pitiless battle against the Jews in every form, and not to give up until the last Jewish thinking has been destroyed everywhere.

We National Socialists have exterminated the Jewish spirit and the Jews themselves in Germany. We will not cease this struggle until the final judgment has been spoken against the Jews. Judah must die! Anti-Semitism will triumph throughout the world.

We not just talking of ideas here. we talking about people.

Who in this struggle can still speak of pity, brotherly love, etc.? Who believes that a parasite (e.g., a louse) can be improved or changed? Who believes that one can come to an agreement with a parasite? We can only choose between being devoured by the parasite or destroying it.
The Jew must be destroyed wherever we meet him!
In so doing, we commit no crime against life, but rather serve life's laws of battle, which always oppose that which is an enemy to healthy life. Our battle serves to maintain life.

Tell me this is not a call to exterminate Jews. Go ahead try it.

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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