---

\Why do you assume that I want to kill everything that isn't a human being?

---

Generally, I have found people who support abortion on grounds of women's rights to be very pro-death and anti-choice.  Who cares about the right of life?  What the woman wants is so much more important than someone else's life.  The mother carrying the fetus should have a choice to kill it - because she certainly too helpless to have any choice before to conceive it (in the exception of true rape cases, of course).  Certainly, the human fetus has no choice.  And there's apparently not a damn thing anybody can do because what the woman wants supercedes everything.

All exemplified by this post: http://www.golivewire.com/forums/peer-tapntt-support-ypa.html#185

I support abortion, but supporting it because you believe the woman should have a right to choose should not be a reason.  There should be no hesitation to call one pro-death and anti-choice on those grounds.  It's a sad mix up of what should be the priority in abortion topics - should it discuss the right to life and whether a fetus qualifies for that or women's rights?  This is something that always confuses both sides to no end.  It even reflects these sentiments in their positions' name.  It's almost as if pro-lifers and pro-choicers are arguing two separate things at times.

I only agree with abortion on the grounds that I don't believe it's fully deserving of human rights yet - before 6 months, there's not a whole lot of recognizable human brain activity going on.  There's the potential, yes, but there's always a potential.  Giving the choice to women as to whether they can abort it or not is basically a result of letting abortion be legal - it should never be a reason to make it legal.

---

Quote: from PewPew at 12:56 pm on Mar. 28, 2008

---

The fetus is biologically dependant on the mother. It develops and survives based from her food/air/etc intake. Thus the rationale for the fetus not being an individual with rights equal to those of the mother, atleast until it is developed enough to be able to survive outside the womb.

---

A newborn baby is also so dependent as are the very old and disabled. They posses rights while being so dependent.

---

The difference being that they are not biologically dependent...if the newborn baby's mother dies or if the primary caretaker for the elderly person dies, someone else can step in and take their place. If the mother dies before the fetus can viably survive without her, the fetus can't just go on depending on someone else; it will die.

-------
Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

---

Quote: from Elm at 4:13 pm on Mar. 28, 2008

---

Quote: from PewPew at 12:56 pm on Mar. 28, 2008

---

The fetus is biologically dependant on the mother. It develops and survives based from her food/air/etc intake. Thus the rationale for the fetus not being an individual with rights equal to those of the mother, atleast until it is developed enough to be able to survive outside the womb.

---

 

 A newborn baby is also so dependent as are the very old and disabled.  They posses rights while being so dependent.  

 

---

The difference being that they are not biologically dependent...if the newborn baby's mother dies or if the primary caretaker for the elderly person dies, someone else can step in and take their place. If the mother dies before the fetus can viably survive without her, the fetus can't just go on depending on someone else; it will die.

---

Why does being biologically dependent allow one to infringe the rights of another?

Remember the original argument was that a fetus was part of the mother's body so that she can decide what to do with it.  That has already been conceded as false so we are left with the reasoning that infringing on the right to life is acceptable so long as who is being killed is biologically dependent.

So I pose this; according to that reasoning each cojoined twin has the right to kill the other mind so long as they share a vital organ or enough mass that separation would be fatal.

Is that acceptable to you?

---

Why does being biologically dependent allow one to infringe the rights of another?

---

---

Remember the original argument was that a fetus was part of the mother's body so that she can decide what to do with it. That has already been conceded as false so we are left with the reasoning that infringing on the right to life is acceptable so long as who is being killed is biologically dependent.

---

---

So I pose this; according to that reasoning each cojoined twin has the right to kill the other mind so long as they share a vital organ or enough mass that separation would be fatal.

---

That would be a different case since they are both biologically dependant on the same organs, not one being around before the other or one being biologically independant while the other is biologically dependant. The situtation is however very improbable since seperation being fatal would mean that killing one twin would also result in the death of the other twin.

Post edited at 2:57 pm on Mar. 28, 2008 by PewPew

-------
All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no
one was born with a knowledge of God. -Voltaire

Its like saying hey I can do whatever I want with my house or in my house including burning down the ppl inside if they are inside. Well yeah its your house but you can't just brun it down when people are inside. You have to try to save them even if you don't like them. Otherwise you a murderer and you go to jail. Its not like first degree when you really mean to kill them but its at least manslaughter.

Killing a fetus is manslaughter.

-------
"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

I will not debate this. If you are raped, its called emergency contraception.

-------
Somethings don't spell out right in life.
Fcuk.

---

I know, but how can a person not accept that some people just don't want the baby?

---

Post edited at 5:04 pm on Mar. 28, 2008 by jakelong

-------
"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

---

If you have sex, you're ready for a baby.

I will not debate this. If you are raped, its called emergency contraception.

---

How do you define ready?

-------
All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no
one was born with a knowledge of God. -Voltaire

---

Quote: from SusieQuestionu at 3:53 am on Mar. 28, 2008

---

I know, but how can a person not accept that some people just don't want the baby?  

---

if they don't want the baby they can have it adopted by somebody. its notthe same as abortion which kill the baby no matter what.

---

Most are however done in the first trimester, I wouldn't exactly call it a 'baby' at that point in time.

-------
All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no
one was born with a knowledge of God. -Voltaire

---

Quote: from rebelmozzerella at 4:57 pm on Mar. 28, 2008

---

If you have sex, you're ready for a baby.  

 I will not debate this. If you are raped, its called emergency contraception.

---

How do you define ready?

---

You want a baby.

-------
Somethings don't spell out right in life.
Fcuk.

---

Uh. It's a human being. An innocent human being. An innocent human being who did not decide to be brought into this world. An innocent human being who did not decide to be brought into this world and who should not be killed because his or her idiotic mother just wanted to get screwed and was irresponsible.

---

Way to lay it on thick.

-------
I WIN

---

Because it's NOT JUST ABOUT HER BODY. There's SOMEONE ELSE's life involved in the deal.  

---

Not JUST about her body, but it does include it...and will include it for about 9 months. Guess what? That's a long time!

Abortion should be legal.

Not just because everyone has a chance to decide what they want done to their body, but also because if it isn't legalised people will start doing it illegaly. Which means more danger for the mother.

-------
Live. Love. Grow.

---

Quote: from PewPew at 7:25 pm on Mar. 28, 2008

---

Quote: from rebelmozzerella at 4:57 pm on Mar. 28, 2008

---

If you have sex, you're ready for a baby.

  I will not debate this. If you are raped, its called emergency contraception.

---

 

 How do you define ready?

---

You want a baby.

---

That's ridiculous. There are plenty of thirteen-year-olds out there who've decided that they want a baby, but are in no way, shape or form "ready" for a baby, emotionally, physically, mentally or financially.

-------
Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after