We can't let a mass panic start.
We can't admit we know what's going to happen.

We are lied to every day, yet we remain content in this life, preferring to watch American Idol, or find out about the newest celeb rehab incident.

We are sheep, numb to the real issues, lapping up the government's words like kittens.

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The end times are coming. 12/21/12. 11:11. You'll see, if you haven't already.
(I lie on polls.  Because I can.)(GLM ISO GWM)

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Quote: from norock at 3:29 pm on Mar. 18, 2008

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1) Is this the first time in the history of Earth that the climate has changed? I did not know that global climate was a stagnant equilibrium...  

 2) No one wants to destroy the world, but some things can not be changed or undone. We will never come to a level of existence here where there is not some adverse effect to the environment. We are a species that changes its environment based on ITS needs, not one that adapts to the changing environment.

 As long as we exist as we do --naturally-- nature will be subject to change.

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Simply because it has been lost in the drivel and unrelated rambling. I do wish to be responded to.

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I understand your reasoning. The Earth does go through natural changes in climate, we are just speeding it up from 20,000 years to half a century and making it more severe.

We probably can not reverse the damage we have already done to the planet, but if we stop destroying it, it will repair itself. Of course we will always affect our environment, but we can minimize the damage that we do. I'm not worried about US adapting to the changing climate. We will be fine, it's the species that we rely on for food and resources that won't be able to adapt, and that will make us not fine.

You seem very reasonable, I hope that you will change your mind.

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We all must face our Moment of Truth.

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My facts, not yours, sorry.

We can't let a mass panic start.
We can't admit we know what's going to happen.

We are lied to every day, yet we remain content in this life, preferring to watch American Idol, or find out about the newest celeb rehab incident.

We are sheep, numb to the real issues, lapping up the government's words like kittens.

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Wait, so we are supposed to not tell the public that if we don't do something in the next few years that we are screwed? I know they are sheeple, that is why I am trying to educate them. I agree with you, but they should be informed, they should be dragged, squirming, into the light to see what is going on. We can't just leave this up to a select few, or ignore it because it would be too hard to fix.

The planets a sinking ship that has a slight chance of being saved. Are we going to tell everybody to wake up and help us patch it, or are we going to gouge bigger holes into it so it sinks faster and let everybody think that everything is dandy until it is too late to fix it?

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We all must face our Moment of Truth.

I'm right there on the frontlines with you.

I would be denying global warming if I wanted to keep us ignorant.

The truth is, we need to panic.  We need to get angry.  That's the only way that we'll get the drive needed to affect the Whole.

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The end times are coming. 12/21/12. 11:11. You'll see, if you haven't already.
(I lie on polls.  Because I can.)(GLM ISO GWM)

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Sorry, when I said WE, I meant that is the thinking of those who keep us in the dark.

I'm right there on the frontlines with you.

I would be denying global warming if I wanted to keep us ignorant.

The truth is, we need to panic. We need to get angry. That's the only way that we'll get the drive needed to affect the Whole.

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All right. Finally, someone who is sensible.  

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We all must face our Moment of Truth.

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I understand your reasoning. The Earth does go through natural changes in climate, we are just speeding it up from 20,000 years to half a century and making it more severe.  

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The Younger Dryas ended about 12,000 years ago,

The difference between ice ages is not constant, nor is the variance of climate change per dynamic period.  

Where have you gotten this "half a century" notion?

The first ice age is dated at 2400-2100 million years ago, the next at 800-635 million years, the next at 450-420 million years, and the fourth was at 360-260 million years.
the difference between ice ages is then seen as:
1300 million years
185 million years
60 million years    

our current ice age [we are considered in an ice age due to the glaciation of the north and south poles] began around 3 million years ago and the temperature of the sea and terra relative temperatures has fluctuated on 41,000 and then "recently" 100,000 year intervals.

It should be noted that we are in an interglacial period, [a warm interval within an ice age] that began sometime between 12 -15 thousand years ago.  

It is of no surprise, then, that the climate is "warming up" as we are in a time of climate change between glacial intervals.

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We probably can not reverse the damage we have already done to the planet, but if we stop destroying it, it will repair itself. Of course we will always affect our environment, but we can minimize the damage that we do. I'm not worried about US adapting to the changing climate. We will be fine, it's the species that we rely on for food and resources that won't be able to adapt, and that will make us not fine.  

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True, we may have done some damage to the overall homeostasis that nature tries to maintain, but to say that we are the cause of a major global climate change.  

That argument is --in my opinion-- one for the superstitious and the cynical.  

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You seem very reasonable, I hope that you will change your mind.

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My stance on this subject will not change, however that is not to say that I do not think that we --as responsible and evolved beings-- should not take care in caring for our habitat. Simply that I do not believe that we are the cause of any MAJOR global climate change.

Taking care of the planet should not be seen as recompense for a mistake, for what would happen --then-- if we were to "fix" the damage done? The care would once again be lost. We should be taking care of the planet simply because it is the sensible and right thing to do.

Post edited at 1:46 pm on Mar. 18, 2008 by norock

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

below is an image that shows something similar, it is a CO2 [ppm] rating that indicates the changing climates [low temp, low co2 and vice versa]

note the numerous accounts of varying temperature, both increasing and decreasing. also note that the increase curves and the decrease curves are not wholly parabolic, they fluctuate erratically.

Post edited at 1:51 pm on Mar. 18, 2008 by norock

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

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Quote: from nigeltheoutlaw at 3:54 pm on Mar. 18, 2008

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I understand your reasoning. The Earth does go through natural changes in climate, we are just speeding it up from 20,000 years to half a century and making it more severe.

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The Younger Dryas ended about 12,000 years ago,

The difference between ice ages is not constant, nor is the variance of climate change per dynamic period.

Where have you gotten this "half a century" notion?

The first ice age is dated at 2400-2100 million years ago, the next at 800-635 million years, the next at 450-420 million years, and the fourth was at 360-260 million years.
the difference between ice ages is then seen as:
1300 million years
185 million years
60 million years

our current ice age [we are considered in an ice age due to the glaciation of the north and south poles] began around 3 million years ago and the temperature of the sea and terra relative temperatures has fluctuated on 41,000 and then "recently" 100,000 year intervals.

It should be noted that we are in an interglacial period, [a warm interval within an ice age] that began sometime between 12 -15 thousand years ago.

It is of no surprise, then, that the climate is "warming up" as we are in a time of climate change between glacial intervals.

---

We probably can not reverse the damage we have already done to the planet, but if we stop destroying it, it will repair itself. Of course we will always affect our environment, but we can minimize the damage that we do. I'm not worried about US adapting to the changing climate. We will be fine, it's the species that we rely on for food and resources that won't be able to adapt, and that will make us not fine.

---

True, we may have done some damage to the overall homeostasis that nature tries to maintain, but to say that we are the cause of a major global climate change.

That argument is --in my opinion-- one for the superstitious and the cynical.

---

You seem very reasonable, I hope that you will change your mind.

---

My stance on this subject will not change, however that is not to say that I do not think that we --as responsible and evolved beings-- should not take care in caring for our habitat. Simply that I do not believe that we are the cause of any MAJOR global climate change.

Taking care of the planet should not be seen as recompense for a mistake, for what would happen --then-- if we were to "fix" the damage done? The care would once again be lost. We should be taking care of the planet simply because it is the sensible and right thing to do.

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I wasn't speaking of ice ages, just the warmer and cooler intervals.

My "half century notion" is just the estimated time for irrevocable and serious damage to be done to the Earth if current trends continue.

I agree that we should take care of the planet because it is the right thing to do, but that isoften not enough for people, so educating them on the incoming crises may persaude them more than if we say "It will give you a warm, fuzzy feeling inside."

The species of the Earth always adapted to the natural fluctuations of Earth's temperatures because of the slow transition. They will not be able to survive these transitions because it is a much sharper and severe spike.

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We all must face our Moment of Truth.

It didn't load before, but here it is again. note the continuous and drastic spikes in CO2 levels.

Yes, in the past couple centuries, there has been a major spike in CO2 levels, however this is not a single occurrence.

the change has went from about 280 ppm to 380 ppm a 100ppm change.

prior to that there were 3-4 periods of changes between 70-100 ppm, quite comparable.

Nothing outside of de-industrialization will lower the CO2 levels of our planet [in fact, most of the spike was due to the industrial revolution and the time prior and subsequent in which coal and copious amounts of fossil fuels were burned, as of late, the spike has started to level out]

All this means is that with our current level of CO2 output the level of transition can no longer be seen as around 230 ppm, as more CO2 has been introduced than there currently was before our existence. It must be risen to account for the addition of the extra CO2. surely you are not under the impression that our CO2 level output is similar or even comparable to that of a century ago?

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

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You act as though we are at some epoch of both irreversible and unmatched climate change.  

It didn't load before, but here it is again. note the continuous and drastic spikes in CO2 levels.

Yes, in the past couple centuries, there has been a major spike in CO2 levels, however this is not a single occurrence.

the change has went from about 280 ppm to 380 ppm a 100ppm change.

prior to that there were 3-4 periods of changes between 70-100 ppm, quite comparable.  

Nothing outside of de-industrialization will lower the CO2 levels of our planet [in fact, most of the spike was due to the industrial revolution and the time prior and subsequent in which coal and copious amounts of fossil fuels were burned, as of late, the spike has started to level out]

All this means is that with our current level of CO2 output the level of transition can no longer be seen as around 230 ppm, as more CO2 has been introduced than there currently was before our existence. It must be risen to account for the addition of the extra CO2. surely you are not under the impression that our CO2 level output is similar or even comparable to that of a century ago?  

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Yes, it has started to level out, but that is because we have started to do something about GCC instead of ignoring it. Of couse our greenhouse gas output is more, because then there were maybe a million people and only a few cities with factories. Now we have over 6 billion people and factories, cars, and power plants litter  our planet. De-industrialization is unnescasary, we just need some cleaner fuels, which can inlude fossil fuels, if we have scrubbers and other ways to reduce the greenhouse gasses. Many factories are working on a way to convert their CO2 emmisions into baking soda that can be sold for a profit. In the possibility in some other alternate universe that we are wrong, all of the worrying will be for nothing, and we will have a better Earth. Any way you slice it, helping the evironment and stopping GCC will be good.

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We all must face our Moment of Truth.

But yeah, the overall feeling here is that these so called "scientists" who preach this stuff are full of shit and only do it so they can get more government grants and waste taxpayer money. You're simply naive if you think some scientists aren't in this for the $$$.

coldest winter in 15 years in alaska by the way.

I admit that helping the environment is a good thing, but you will never stop GCC nor will we lessen it to a point that was comparable to pre-industrialization levels. To think that that is possible is silly.

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...