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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 2:34 pm on April 1, 2008

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I'm not seeing the contradiction here. If God wants everyone to be saved, where a person was born won't matter in the long-run, nor will any other experiences. Sooner or later, the chance to accept salvation will arise in a way that the decision wouldn't be influenced by something that mundane.

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If that were true, wouldn't the conversion rates to Christianity be the same in all countries?

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That question has as much relevance to your signature portion stating how free will is a fairytale!  You do understand and acknowledge the point and question of the conversion process, itself, right?

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You speak too cryptically. What are you asking?

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فُک جحُوى

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Quote: from Soren Kierkegaard at 2:47 pm on April 1, 2008

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That question has as much relevance to your signature portion stating how free will is a fairytale!  You do understand and acknowledge the point and question of the conversion process, itself, right?

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You speak too cryptically. What are you asking?

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 12:16 pm on Mar. 31, 2008

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Frankly, I find this to be a stupid argument. Simply because choices are informed and influenced by past experiences does not mean that they cease to be choices.

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I don't mean to say that choices are simply informed or influenced by experience. I mean to say that the ego is molded by forces that we cannot control, and that all "choices" must be in line with the ego. You will never make a decision that isn't within you for some reason or another. Those who "choose" to believe or disbelieve, aren't able to choose anything else.

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You clearly do not understand the meaning of "free will" in the sense of not following a predetermined path. That choices are influenced by experience or whatever, they are still choices. If free will does not exist, then they fail to be choices at all.

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Whether or not your path is predetermined, you still don't have control over what sorts of choices you are going to make. Simply because, you cannot do what isn't you, and we do not choose who to be. You are a product of your life, and there is nothing you can do to change that. If you can't choose the circumstances that make you, you can't really choose anything.

No, choices aren't choices. They're reactions.

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فُک جحُوى

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Quote: from Shaknbake at 2:21 pm on Mar. 31, 2008

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 12:16 pm on Mar. 31, 2008

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Frankly, I find this to be a stupid argument. Simply because choices are informed and influenced by past experiences does not mean that they cease to be choices.

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 I don't mean to say that choices are simply informed or influenced by experience. I mean to say that the ego is molded by forces that we cannot control, and that all "choices" must be in line with the ego. You will never make a decision that isn't within you for some reason or another. Those who "choose" to believe or disbelieve, aren't able to choose anything else.

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You clearly do not understand the meaning of "free will" in the sense of not following a predetermined path. That choices are influenced by experience or whatever, they are still choices. If free will does not exist, then they fail to be choices at all.

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:58 pm on April 1, 2008

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Quote: from Shaknbake at 2:21 pm on Mar. 31, 2008

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 12:16 pm on Mar. 31, 2008

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Frankly, I find this to be a stupid argument. Simply because choices are informed and influenced by past experiences does not mean that they cease to be choices.

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  I don't mean to say that choices are simply informed or influenced by experience. I mean to say that the ego is molded by forces that we cannot control, and that all "choices" must be in line with the ego. You will never make a decision that isn't within you for some reason or another. Those who "choose" to believe or disbelieve, aren't able to choose anything else.

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You clearly do not understand the meaning of "free will" in the sense of not following a predetermined path. That choices are influenced by experience or whatever, they are still choices. If free will does not exist, then they fail to be choices at all.

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If we're incapable of choosing our decisions regarding religious preference, how then are we fully capable of distinguishing between a sea of theories concerning the scientific process?

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What if I propose this claim?
"One illusion is more reasonable and humble and intellectually honest, than other less reasonable illusions."

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If we're incapable of choosing our decisions regarding religious preference, how then are we fully capable of distinguishing between a sea of theories concerning the scientific process?

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What sea of theories is this?

Besides that, same thing applies. Our "choices" as per whose ideas we support or take as truth are ultimately reactionary (though at least with theories, we are able to address evidences as we form our opinions, instead of just accepting some dogma without credences).

Edit: Also, to distinguish and to choose to accept are different. if I choose to accept you're an Englishman because of your accent, that's one item, but if I choose to believe your grandparents conquered Australia and built pyramids there, I'm making an entirely different kind of choice based on different information.

Post edited at 3:14 pm on April 1, 2008 by Shaknbake

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فُک جحُوى

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:58 pm on April 1, 2008

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You clearly do not understand the meaning of "free will" in the sense of not following a predetermined path. That choices are influenced by experience or whatever, they are still choices. If free will does not exist, then they fail to be choices at all.

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Whether or not your path is predetermined, you still don't have control over what sorts of choices you are going to make. Simply because, you cannot do what isn't you, and we do not choose who to be. You are a product of your life, and there is nothing you can do to change that. If you can't choose the circumstances that make you, you can't really choose anything.

No, choices aren't choices. They're reactions.

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Post edited at 3:43 pm on April 1, 2008 by TooImaginativeTeen

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I make choices every day. What to wear*, what to eat**, how to get to school, who to hang out with, what to buy at the mall, thousands of choices, many of which are spur of the moment, some which are considered over a period of time. Are you going to tell me that none of those choices are mine to make?*** Can I choose to be silly one day and serious the next? What is it that encloses me in this box you are defining that restricts what I can and cannot do? Where is the line drawn on what is my choice and what I am 'forced' to do?

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* You're not likely to go naked in public tomorrow. Could you choose to? Honestly, could you overcome the societal pressures and the ingrained No-ness of that?
** Similarly, you're probably not going to choose to eat something that disgusts you, or something that you feel is not an acceptable source of food (the family pet?). Why is that? Can you choose to defy your core feelings in those matters?
*** Certainly, your choices are yours to make. But you don't choose the selection of choices you get to choose from. For Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, conversion to Christianity was never an option for him. He would not be able to choose to do it, anymore than you or I can choose to go against all we've been taught and all we feel.

And finally, the only thing confining you in your box o' choices is who you've become. And, again, you can't control the forces that determine who you become.

Post edited at 3:39 pm on April 1, 2008 by Shaknbake

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فُک جحُوى

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Quote: from Soren Kierkegaard at 3:07 pm on April 1, 2008

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:58 pm on April 1, 2008

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Quote: from Shaknbake at 2:21 pm on Mar. 31, 2008

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 12:16 pm on Mar. 31, 2008

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Frankly, I find this to be a stupid argument. Simply because choices are informed and influenced by past experiences does not mean that they cease to be choices.

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   I don't mean to say that choices are simply informed or influenced by experience. I mean to say that the ego is molded by forces that we cannot control, and that all "choices" must be in line with the ego. You will never make a decision that isn't within you for some reason or another. Those who "choose" to believe or disbelieve, aren't able to choose anything else.

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You clearly do not understand the meaning of "free will" in the sense of not following a predetermined path. That choices are influenced by experience or whatever, they are still choices. If free will does not exist, then they fail to be choices at all.

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If we're incapable of choosing our decisions regarding religious preference, how then are we fully capable of distinguishing between a sea of theories concerning the scientific process?  
 

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What if I propose this claim?
"One illusion is more reasonable and humble and intellectually honest, than other less reasonable illusions."

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Take The Big Bang theory and apply it to my disease.  My disease is medically known to have a starting point where the immune system begins to attack whereas science wishes to explain that the Universe has always been as a finite solution?  Once again, interpretation is as freely to decide how and why events happen regardless of how functional or systematic you make them.


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God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say.
Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful:
he makes saints out of sinners.

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It's not that you're forced, I think.
It's just that, yes, even thoguht it is clear you go through processes which you call free will, whatever you think of, they're bound to be the result of something else, and thus, not really free.

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 3:29 pm on April 1, 2008

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I make choices every day. What to wear*, what to eat**, how to get to school, who to hang out with, what to buy at the mall, thousands of choices, many of which are spur of the moment, some which are considered over a period of time. Are you going to tell me that none of those choices are mine to make?*** Can I choose to be silly one day and serious the next? What is it that encloses me in this box you are defining that restricts what I can and cannot do? Where is the line drawn on what is my choice and what I am 'forced' to do?

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* You're not likely to go naked in public tomorrow. Could you choose to? Honestly, could you overcome the societal pressures and the ingrained No-ness of that?
** Similarly, you're probably not going to choose to eat something that disgusts you, or something that you feel is not an acceptable source of food (the family pet?). Why is that? Can you choose to defy your core feelings in those matters?
*** Certainly, your choices are yours to make. But you don't choose the selection of choices you get to choose from. For Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, conversion to Christianity was never an option for him. He would not be able to choose to do it, anymore than you or I can choose to go against all we've been taught and all we feel.

And finally, the only thing confining you in your box o' choices is who you've become. And, again, you can't control the forces that determine who you become.

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Naked in public tomorrow? I doubt it, but I do have a spontaneous nature.
Eating something that disgusts me? No, I probably wouldn't, but eating something I've never tried before, entirely possible.
That I have no 'choice' of the selection of choices is not the point. Whether or not I am free to choose from those choices IS. And you should never say never.

So, to repeat myself... Who I have become is more or less based on the choices that I've previously made. But as long as I have 'free will' (which I believe I do) I am not strictly limited by those previous choices. Only influenced.

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Don't laugh at me, Don't call me names
Don't get your pleasure from my pain
In God's eyes we're all the same
Someday we'll all have perfect wings