In other words do we deserve our basic necessities? I haven't really formulated a coherent argument for either side yet, but I do have my idea (I won't say it because I don't want to influence you guys), but what do you think?

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Your question is rather broad.

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"Deserve" in what sense.  As individuals by being good people?  As a species for being good in general.  (Or not.)

Your question is rather broad.

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That was my goal, to have you guys elaborate on it...

I mean deserve in the sense that... are we entitled to our basic necessities?

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Treating politics as the "authoritative allocation of values," most political systems are founded for the benefit of at least one person. At some point, however, the system will need to provide a benefit for more of its members, or it will be defeated, and possibly absorbed or destroyed, by a superior system.

In other words, political systems which provide for their adherents are more likely to survive, in my opinion. A rather pragmatic approach, probably, but it gets the job done.

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Well. Since they're our basic necessities, we're going to go ahead and grab them by pretty much any means possibible and necessary, regardless of what's "right" or "wrong." Why would people buy into any political, moral, or religious system which denies them these necessities?

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True...even in our "civilized" world, you can still see people who are willing to do anything no matter how immoral it may be.  It's just man's intrinsic desire to get whatever we want.  You can argue on either side: that this is the characteristic that distinguishes us from other animals, or this may as well be our tragic flaw that ultimately leads to the downfall of mankind.

So..to answer ranman's question.  We start of not deserving or necessities.  We start as ape men with no knowledge of fire, of weapons, of hunting, but those necessities, over time (as opposition--it may be nature or other factors that threaten our survival--grows), this forced us to strive to "deserve" them.  According to the concept of evolution, there will be some traits that allows a select few to survive better than the others--in this case, to "deserve" whatever is needed to progress to the "next level" in our development as a civilization.  Thus, a political system that allows everyone to "deserve" all the necessities in life will be the most successful one.  It may not be moral, but if it keeps the people happy, then it will work.  As you have seen, monarchies of the past--although imperfect and lacking freedom in many aspects--provide people with enough to satisfy their needs (the means to their necessities) have been successful to a large degree.

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Quite frankly this could also tie into whether right and wrong, good and evil, actually exists outside human perspective.

Post edited at 6:42 am on Nov. 10, 2007 by Bacon

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You know you simply cannot argue with the opinion of Bacon.

However, to be deserving of something, is something different altogether.

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Why are we here, if we are here at all?

The statement was definitely too broad for me to pinpoint exactly what I'm saying. But we definitely deserve our necessities, if we can obtain it, then we earned it.

Perhaps Plato didn't have a right to his basic necessities - being as how his greatest necessity was a 12 year old boy - but I certainly deserve mine.

Yes I deserve food. Why - cause I'll starve and die if I don't have it. And I don't want to die prematurely and shouldn't have to. That's why I was born with a survival instinct - to prevent shit like that from happening to me.

Yes I deserve water. Why - see above.

Yes I deserve shelter. Why - see above.

I love philosophy - legitimizing illegitimate questions for over 2000 years.

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If a government didn't exist and there were no farmers to supply food and no dams to pump water through your house pipes, would you automatically get them? Hell no.

Doesn't deserving something usually imply that you should get it when it's available no matter what? Like I said, if none of the machines of society existed, you wouldn't be getting jack shit.

I think the real question here is if you deserve to get these things from people if they're readily available.

People are judgmental.
Nature is not.

Post edited at 11:46 am on Feb. 10, 2008 by branflakes

There are old farmers in developing countries that have worked at their crops for over half a century for their family, due to foreign imports, he cannot compete effectively, so he has stayed poor. He has never had a holiday, nor a day off, what have we done to deserve the luxuries we have in comparison to this man? Not much.

This is why some beings die.

When a being or species can't provide its for its own necessities, it dies.