You're absolutely right, the child won't learn from what they did wrong. It's mainly a form of punishment, not discipline.

Post edited at 10:37 pm on Dec. 8, 2007 by Black Sheep

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Your everlasting summer, you can see it fadin' fast.
So you grab a piece of somethin' that you think is gonna last.
Well, you wouldn't even know a diamond if you held it in your hand.
The things you think are precious I can't understand.

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Finally a future.

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If the child does not listen, does not respect you as their mentor and teacher, and parent, how do you make them?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-violent_child_discipline

It also says:

"Since spanking has been shown in scientific studies [1] [2] [3] to lead to more misbehaviour in the long run, a commitment to non-violent discipline can be expected to soon make parents' lives easier than they would have been otherwise."

Just throwin' that out there.

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Your everlasting summer, you can see it fadin' fast.
So you grab a piece of somethin' that you think is gonna last.
Well, you wouldn't even know a diamond if you held it in your hand.
The things you think are precious I can't understand.

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If the child does not listen, does not respect you as their mentor and teacher, and parent, how do you make them?

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There are ways. If household conditions reach critical stress levels, the parent needs to assert his/her virtual absolute authority. There are ways to keep kids under control with restrictions and possibly things like Military camp. Spanking is like giving up on proper parenting and reaching for a brutal assistance.

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Quote: from Rastafarian at 10:29 pm on Dec. 8, 2007

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If the child does not listen, does not respect you as their mentor and teacher, and parent, how do you make them?  

 

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There are ways. If household conditions reach critical stress levels, the parent needs to assert his/her virtual absolute authority. There are ways to keep kids under control with restrictions and possibly things like Military camp. Spanking is like giving up on proper parenting and reaching for a brutal assistance.

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How can a parent assert absolute authority?

One could argue that military camp is absolving the parents of the responsibility of parenting and passing it onto another. Which could be related to the same idea you pass for spanking.

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Finally a future.

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Quote: from Rastafarian at 1:29 am on Dec. 9, 2007

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If the child does not listen, does not respect you as their mentor and teacher, and parent, how do you make them?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-violent_child_discipline

It also says:

"Since spanking has been shown in scientific studies [1] [2] [3] to lead to more misbehaviour in the long run, a commitment to non-violent discipline can be expected to soon make parents' lives easier than they would have been otherwise."

Just throwin' that out there.

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Read a bit lower on about the NZ study.
Anyways, my opinion, that physical reinforcement should only be used in cases where the child is obviously not learning the issue, when other non-violent methods prove obviously ineffective.

Outside of those conditions, generally I'd agree that spanking is horrid.

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Finally a future.

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Good point. However, a child being put into a camp is not being psychically abused.

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I was spanked, against my mother's wishes,in a Christian Private school. She had signed a legal document that stated I should not be punished in that way, but was at any rate.

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I was so ashamed at being hit I kept it a secret and cried at night in embarrassment. My case may be unique, since I was not usually submitted to striking, or because it was someone besides a parent, but it first cracked my beliefs of Christianity and my views on Spanking.

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I can understand where you are coming from, and it would seem that you where subjected to unjust treatment.
I'd like to offer sympathy... but I can't find the proper words. :/

But I hope in the end that for the purposes of this argument that you understand what you personally experienced can't be applied to all children, as it seemed to be in your OP.

Post edited at 10:56 pm on Dec. 8, 2007 by Rastafarian

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Finally a future.

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Quote: from Black Sheep at 11:32 pm on Dec. 8, 2007

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Quote: from Rastafarian at 1:29 am on Dec. 9, 2007

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If the child does not listen, does not respect you as their mentor and teacher, and parent, how do you make them?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-violent_child_discipline

It also says:

"Since spanking has been shown in scientific studies [1] [2] [3] to lead to more misbehaviour in the long run, a commitment to non-violent discipline can be expected to soon make parents' lives easier than they would have been otherwise."

Just throwin' that out there.

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Read a bit lower on about the NZ study.  
Anyways, my opinion, that physical reinforcement should only be used in cases where the child is obviously not learning the issue, when other non-violent methods prove obviously ineffective.  

Outside of those conditions, generally I'd agree that spanking is horrid.

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Yea, but "light hand spanking."

psshhh, I'd hardly call that punishment. :P

Post edited at 11:20 pm on Dec. 8, 2007 by Black Sheep

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Your everlasting summer, you can see it fadin' fast.
So you grab a piece of somethin' that you think is gonna last.
Well, you wouldn't even know a diamond if you held it in your hand.
The things you think are precious I can't understand.

---

Quote: from Rastafarian at 1:43 am on Dec. 9, 2007

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Quote: from Black Sheep at 11:32 pm on Dec. 8, 2007

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Quote: from Rastafarian at 1:29 am on Dec. 9, 2007

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If the child does not listen, does not respect you as their mentor and teacher, and parent, how do you make them?

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 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-violent_child_discipline    

 It also says:    

 "Since spanking has been shown in scientific studies [1] [2] [3] to lead to more misbehaviour in the long run, a commitment to non-violent discipline can be expected to soon make parents' lives easier than they would have been otherwise."    

 Just throwin' that out there.

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Read a bit lower on about the NZ study.    
Anyways, my opinion, that physical reinforcement should only be used in cases where the child is obviously not learning the issue, when other non-violent methods prove obviously ineffective.    

Outside of those conditions, generally I'd agree that spanking is horrid.

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Yea, but "light hand spanking."  

psshhh, I'd hardly call that punishment. :P

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specifically criticised several previous studies which did not distinguish different degree of physical punishment and argue that such studies are biased from the outset to favour non physical method of child discipline.

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Reads your own source material!

Post edited at 11:24 pm on Dec. 8, 2007 by Rastafarian

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Finally a future.

children of that age do not consider the right or wrongness of their actions, that is just not something that they understand yet. when they are young they need to have DEFINITE rewards for actions, be they good or bad. if a child does something GOOD we reward them. if a child does something BAD, we do not sit them down and explain the rational behind their wrongness like they are intellectual colleagues, we punish them. and to what extent, i agree with Rasta in his limitations for physical punishment.

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

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Spanking is a degrading act that makes the child, at any age, feel pitiful and unwanted.

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That's funny, because it made me feel more pitiful and unwanted when my parents would put me in a corner or yell at me than when they would explain to me, "I told you before that if you did X, I would spank you. You did X, so I am going to spank you," then popped me on the bum and, once I'd stopped crying, said, "Do you understand why you were spanked? You were spanked because you did X that mommy/daddy told you not to do."

So I'm not sure where you're getting this idea.

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The act of spanking is generally applied to smaller children that cannot be reasoned with by the use of words.

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So what do you recommend parents do instead?

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Parents tend to feel that hitting and beating their kids with a tool or hand is appropriate when they cannot express what they need to say verbally.

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There is a definite distinction between spanking a child and beating a child. Perhaps you should learn it.

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This tends to be counter-productive. By beating, the child does not learn why what he is doing he is wrong; (s)he leans that the parent is dangerous.

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Let me tell you a story about my bratty little brother. At the age of four, this kid was sweet as candy in public and an utter menace at home. There were two specific incidents...in one, he ripped my sister's toy out of her hands and was given a time out. When the time out was over, he went back to playing and, ten minutes later, ripped the toy out of my sister's hands again. No matter how many time outs he was given, no matter how my parents tried to reason with him, he wanted that toy and didn't get that he wasn't allowed to rip it out of my sister's hands.

On the other hand, one day he went in and used markers to give several of my dolls a makeover of sorts. My mother explained to him that it was wrong and that if he did it again, he would get a spanking. When he went in to finish the job, he got the promised spanking and, to this day, does not touch my stuff.

Take from that what you will; my brother has an excellent relationship with our parents, and is far better at life than his friends who weren't spanked growing up.

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after