p.s. Whether as a word or a phrase, it can have a definition.

The adjective 'graven' has 2 meanings:

Meaning #1: cut into a desired shape
 Synonyms: sculpted, sculptured

Meaning #2: cut or impressed into a surface
 Synonyms: engraved, etched, incised, inscribed
http://www.answers.com/graven&r=67

Post edited at 7:54 am on June 30, 2008 by Forever Angel

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"God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein
"God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking

Pectus Pectoris Memor

Moreover, these are depictions of Christian icons, having nothing to do with swearing allegiance to a secular symbol.

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"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one  might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

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That article about Orthodox iconography?  Why would that have any bearing.  The  Orthodox will tell you that the dimensional aspect of an image is what decides whether or not it is an idol, hence the eleventh century break between the churches over whether or not statuary was okay.

Moreover, these are depictions of Christian icons, having nothing to do with swearing allegiance to a secular symbol.

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Quote: from Prince o palities at 9:52 am on June 30, 2008

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That article about Orthodox iconography? Why would that have any bearing. The Orthodox will tell you that the dimensional aspect of an image is what decides whether or not it is an idol, hence the eleventh century break between the churches over whether or not statuary was okay.  

 Moreover, these are depictions of Christian icons, having nothing to do with swearing allegiance to a secular symbol.

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If it's a secular symbol, how can it be a graven image?

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I have a question,

in that red skelton vid you posted he talks about undying loyalty, willingness to surrender all you have etc.

those are thoughts and feelings that Christians have about Christ, why are they also having them about a flag?

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Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money
come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and
without cost.-Isaiah 55:1
www.wateringmalawi.com

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:57 am on June 30, 2008

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Quote: from Prince o palities at 9:52 am on June 30, 2008

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That article about Orthodox iconography?  Why would that have any bearing.  The  Orthodox will tell you that the dimensional aspect of an image is what decides whether or not it is an idol, hence the eleventh century break between the churches over whether or not statuary was okay.  

  Moreover, these are depictions of Christian icons, having nothing to do with swearing allegiance to a secular symbol.

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If it's a secular symbol, how can it be a graven image?

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I have a question,  

in that red skelton vid you posted he talks about undying loyalty, willingness to surrender all you have etc.

those are thoughts and feelings that Christians have about Christ, why are they also having them about a flag?

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allegiance: n.

  1. Loyalty or the obligation of loyalty, as to a nation, sovereign, or cause. See synonyms at fidelity.
  2. The obligations of a vassal to a lord.

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"God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein
"God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking

Pectus Pectoris Memor

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Exactly.  That's a great definition.  I don't have allegiance to any sovereign except the Sovereign Lord.  You cannot swear fidelity to a worldly home and still truly be a sojourner.

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It is just as applicable to nation-loving as it is to money loving.

You cannot swear absolute undying loyalty to two differnt Lords, especially when one has the ability to conlfict with the rules or regulations of the other. IT is not undying loyalty if you say, "as long as it doesnt conflict with something else"

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Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money
come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and
without cost.-Isaiah 55:1
www.wateringmalawi.com

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You cannot serve two masters, or you will love the one and despise the other.  

It is just as applicable to nation-loving as it is to money loving.

You cannot swear absolute undying loyalty to two differnt Lords, especially when one has the ability to conlfict with the rules or regulations of the other. IT is not undying loyalty if you say, "as long as it doesnt conflict with something else"

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And in case you didn't look at the link in my last post, here is an excerpt:

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Do Christians state allegiance to the flag? Yes, if it is understood that our allegiance is pledged only so far as we are not forced to disobey God's laws.

The Bible commands us to be good citizens of the country in which we live. We know God has set government over all human beings, and every Christian should "be subject unto the higher powers" (Rom. 13:1). This is with the understanding that our greater, higher, FIRST allegiance belongs to God.

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allegience is absolute. you cannot have absolute allegience to a non-God thing.

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Hey, mikeg80, how do you suppose you'd feel if the line was instead?

"One nation, recognizing that God is imaginary..."

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I like the modest tone of that little number.

Is anyone else in enlightened agreement?

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Quote: from barnabas at 6:45 pm on July 3, 2008

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allegience is absolute. you cannot have absolute allegience to a non-God thing.

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There is nothing in the definition of allegiance that indicates absoluteness. And did you look at Romans 13?

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Our allegience is to God.
Becuase of our allegience to God, one of the things he tells us to do is to submit to authority.

There is a difference between obeying the laws of theland, submitting to authority, even respecting  those in charge because God told us to
and
offering allegiance to an earthly power. One of the definitions of allegiance is "the loyalty that citizens owe their country". We are sojourners, citizens of a heavenly kingdom, obligated to God, not man for our loyalty and allegiance.

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Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money
come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and
without cost.-Isaiah 55:1
www.wateringmalawi.com

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:17 pm on July 3, 2008

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Quote: from barnabas at 6:45 pm on July 3, 2008

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allegience is absolute. you cannot have absolute allegience to a non-God thing.

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There is nothing in the definition of allegiance that indicates absoluteness. And did you look at Romans 13?

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Our allegience is to God.
Becuase of our allegience to God, one of the things he tells us to do is to submit to authority.

There is a difference between obeying the laws of theland, submitting to authority, even respecting  those in charge because God told us to  
and
offering allegiance to an earthly power. One of the definitions of allegiance is "the loyalty that citizens owe their country". We are sojourners, citizens of a heavenly kingdom, obligated to God, not man for our loyalty and allegiance.

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