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( iconoclast )
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Quote: from marshmellowman at 11:22 am on June 26, 2008
 Quote: from prisoner of hss at 4:15 pm on June 26, 2008
defense, protecting oneself from the govt's potential tyranny, the fact that you dont NEED a reason, etc. and mentally ill people are statistically not more violent than mentally 'sane' people, even though statistics dont really matter when deciding personal freedoms
You can have personal freedom with guns, similarly you don't need guns to maintain your freedoms. You don't have to have guns to protect from tyranny, because you can bet your ass that a tyrant will take over if they wish. They will then be removed from power, and removing them doesn't need guns, nor would it really help at all. If you're so afraid of tyranny that you think you need guns to prevent it, then here is an even bigger problem. That's what I'm saying, there should be a reason for owning a gun, not just giving it to those that ask just because.
thats a bad argument, 'lets not have guns because we might lose'. if the public is significantly armed and theres enough insurgency, itll make their job much harder or even impossible and guns are mostly just an insurance policy against fuckheads who want to attack you or trample all over your rights
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8:32 am on June 26, 2008 | Joined: April 2005 | Days Active: 792
Join to learn more about iconoclast New Jersey, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 37,384 | Points: 48,675
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( iconoclast )
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it certainly is true that correlation =/= causation though, but that might not apply here. or it might. but then again, the gun control idiots abuse the same fallacy to 'support' their arguments
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8:54 am on June 26, 2008 | Joined: April 2005 | Days Active: 792
Join to learn more about iconoclast New Jersey, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 37,384 | Points: 48,675
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marshmellowman
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Quote: from prisoner of hss at 4:54 pm on June 26, 2008
it certainly is true that correlation =/= causation though, but that might not apply here. or it might. but then again, the gun control idiots abuse the same fallacy to 'support' their arguments
That's a very good point. We don't know. Clearly our opinions on gun control differ, and I doubt we'll get the other to change their views. I pointed out that merely a statistic wouldn't prove that gun control does nothing. But in that same sense by saying that the crime is still rising even with gun control or if it was falling I could apply the same thing.
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and victorious in war shall be made glorious in peace.
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Kokasion
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Quote: from prisoner of hss at 8:54 am on June 26, 2008
it certainly is true that correlation =/= causation though, but that might not apply here. or it might. but then again, the gun control idiots abuse the same fallacy to 'support' their arguments
In accordance with my previous argument, it's not. She's just attempting make my argument seem like I Over-simplified. I'll admit, the Statistics seem unrelated to the cause, but they're a representation of action. An action that can be discouraged in the uncertainty of equal retaliation. Of course, she also seems to support the Right to bare Arms, if it's heavily regulated. The cause seems to be poverty, according to statistics. Marshmellowman, I wasn't denying that you understood it's meaning, I was denying that you understood it was your only counter-argument to mine. And you couldn't actually apply it in a sentence, against my argument. Only that it was sometimes applied in similar cases, so you think it applies all the time. You relying on it to disregard my argument.
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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means
What you think it means." -Inigo Montoya
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9:07 am on June 26, 2008 | Joined: April 2008 | Days Active: 83
Join to learn more about Kokasion South Carolina, United States | GLBT Ally Male | Posts: 1,092 | Points: 1,962
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Kokasion
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Quote: from marshmellowman at 9:03 am on June 26, 2008
Quote: from prisoner of hss at 4:54 pm on June 26, 2008
it certainly is true that correlation =/= causation though, but that might not apply here. or it might. but then again, the gun control idiots abuse the same fallacy to 'support' their arguments
That's a very good point. We don't know. Clearly our opinions on gun control differ, and I doubt we'll get the other to change their views. I pointed out that merely a statistic wouldn't prove that gun control does nothing. But in that same sense by saying that the crime is still rising even with gun control or if it was falling I could apply the same thing.
In all fairness, It fell for a few years after the ban was enforced. But then it doubled it's previous high in '91
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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means
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9:09 am on June 26, 2008 | Joined: April 2008 | Days Active: 83
Join to learn more about Kokasion South Carolina, United States | GLBT Ally Male | Posts: 1,092 | Points: 1,962
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marshmellowman
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You relying on it to disregard my argument.
No I didn't. All I said was simple "correlation =/= causation" That's a simple statement that I put out there, so to speak. I didn't disregard your argument because I made no mention of your argument whatsoever in my reply.
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Kokasion
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Quote: from marshmellowman at 9:01 am on June 26, 2008
I know perfectly well exactly what that means. Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
By the way. Thanks for that, I only understood it in english. But, to you, I'd argue Post Hoc, Ergo propter hoc. But we both know proper investigation would support both of our claims, and neither of us are "Jumping" to conclusions. Those "Illogical Fallacies" can't be applied in every instance you encounter them. Especially not when they're accompanied with an example other than statistics, to support it. Neither of us are stupid enough to rationalize that Guns aren't used to harm people. But neither of us can argue that guns aren't used to protect people. Post edited at 9:45 am on June 26, 2008 by Kokasion
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9:43 am on June 26, 2008 | Joined: April 2008 | Days Active: 83
Join to learn more about Kokasion South Carolina, United States | GLBT Ally Male | Posts: 1,092 | Points: 1,962
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