"Fighting for your country" seems like it's glamorizing murder, making it acceptable.

It is almost as bad as terrorists who use their religion as their reason for murder and destruction.

You'll probably all disagree, but wanted to hear other opinions.

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This is not a perfect world.  Contries attack each other and wars happen.  When you are in a situation where you are being shot at, you shoot back and if you don't you are a fool.

It is not as bad as terrorists, because terrorists attack unprovoked.  They attack innocent civilians who do not intend to harm them in any way.

However, when it comes to countries, I am highly unpatriotic.  Although there may be causes that I would fight for, I would never fight on the basis of a country.  If a country supports a cause, then I understand it as the cause that I support; patriotism can be a very dangerous and easily manipulated thing if people are not putting it to the test of critical thinking.

tk

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"Argentum qui amat, cum argento numquam satiabitur." ~ Solomon

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I'll admit, I have mixed feelings. In some ways I see fighting violence with violence as falling victim to Irony. We could play semantics and claim that we are justified because we view a certain group as evil, yet they could say the same as us from their point of view.

However, when it comes to countries, I am highly unpatriotic. Although there may be causes that I would fight for, I would never fight on the basis of a country. If a country supports a cause, then I understand it as the cause that I support; patriotism can be a very dangerous and easily manipulated thing if people are not putting it to the test of critical thinking.

tk

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this is a good point...I am very patriotic, but that is because, overall, our cause is freedom...islamic terrorists do not like democracy...they don't like our way of life...which is why they attacked us...we are fighting for democracy and freedom, two causes most people take for granted....

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It's time to nut up or shut up!

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Quote: from tkster at 4:32 pm on July 12, 2008

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I'll admit, I have mixed feelings.  In some ways I see fighting violence with violence as falling victim to Irony.  We could play semantics and claim that we are justified because we view a certain group as evil, yet they could say the same as us from their point of view.  

 However, when it comes to countries, I am highly unpatriotic.  Although there may be causes that I would fight for, I would never fight on the basis of a country.  If a country supports a cause, then I understand it as the cause that I support; patriotism can be a very dangerous and easily manipulated thing if people are not putting it to the test of critical thinking.  

 tk

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this is a good point...I am very patriotic, but that is because, overall, our cause is freedom...islamic terrorists do not like democracy...they don't like our way of life...which is why they attacked us...we are fighting for democracy and freedom, two causes most people take for granted....

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Indeed as long as you understand then that it the cause you support.  People like you are thinking, whereas those who hold up the flag and just love America because it's America scare the Hell out of me.  Make no mistake, the Nazis were patriotic, but their cause was wrong.

Self-reflection is important so that we evaluate whether our cause is moral or immoral.  To give the opposing view, I do not see America's cause as moral because saying "we are fighting for freedom" by pushing democracy on people doesn't come off as very "free" (yes, I know this is one of the themes of Team America).  But I subscribe to more Ghandi-like views in terms of war.

tk

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"Argentum qui amat, cum argento numquam satiabitur." ~ Solomon

The terrorists are way worse than us. If you think the number of deaths on 9/11 was bad, you should see what they do to villages full of people of an opposing Islamic sect (Sunni or Shi ite). You should also see what they do to their own children. Also perhaps you didn't know that the terrorists believe that they will go to heaven if they die while killing civilians, and that they will gain heavenly rewards for killing non-muslims.

Oh and perhaps you've forgotten how the terrorists have made videos of themselves cutting off civilians' and soldiers' heads with a knife as they sing religious songs and praise God.

I can show you such a video if you're not convinced.

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I disagree. Killing enemy soldiers in war is more than justified and I would gladly do it if I get sent to war after i join the Marines.

The terrorists are way worse than us. If you think the number of deaths on 9/11 was bad, you should see what they do to villages full of people of an opposing Islamic sect (Sunni or Shi ite). You should also see what they do to their own children. Also perhaps you didn't know that the terrorists believe that they will go to heaven if they die while killing civilians, and that they will gain heavenly rewards for killing non-muslims.  

Oh and perhaps you've forgotten how the terrorists have made videos of themselves cutting off civilians' and soldiers' heads with a knife as they sing religious songs and praise God.  

I can show you such a video if you're not convinced.

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So because the terrorists are doing worse things, that makes it perfectly alright for us to kill because it's not as bad as what they are doing?

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They attacked the U.S.S Cole in 2000, blew a 30 foot hole in it and killed 17 sailors. This is an act of war. Then they blew up various embassies. This is also an act of war. Then of course they blew up the twin towers on our homeland and killed 3000 people (act of war) and attacked the Pentagon (act of war).They also declared war on us and all of our allies.  

Then they blew up an underground train in the UK and a bus (an act of war) .  

Not to mention the countless attacks and terror in Israel. Car bombings, shootings, IEDs, sniper attacks, suicide bombings with children as young as 14, etc.

And this of course only sums up some of the major things they did to the US and its close allies.  

They also do plenty more terrible things to other civilians and nations like i mentioned above.

All these terrorists care about is killing Americans and/ or the people of any Western nation so they can go to "heaven".
We must destroy them so they can't attack us or anyone else again.

Post edited at 2:09 pm on July 13, 2008 by Assaultrifle

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Wars happen, and if you're in a situation where your life is at risk, you would do anything to stop yourself from dying. It's the human survival instinct. We want to live - and when our lives are put at risk, we fight to survive. It's kill or be killed, essentially.

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oh, she's a dreamer ♥
be the change you wish to see in the world
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currently studying in france

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I hate how this is used as an excuse for murder. I think anyone who can kill is fucked up in the head, war is no exception - I am almost ashamed to think that some of my ancestors killed in the war and used this as an excuse.

"Fighting for your country" seems like it's glamorizing murder, making it acceptable.  

It is almost as bad as terrorists who use their religion as their reason for murder and destruction.

You'll probably all disagree, but wanted to hear other opinions.

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First...it's technically not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another person and, in a wartime situation, killing another person who's trying to kill you is perfectly lawful.

Secondly, it really depends on the situation. Are some wars unjustified? Sure, but there are also plenty that are entirely justified. As everyone in this thread has stated, in an ideal world, war would be unnecessary, and threats on the lives of innocent people could be alleviated by simply talking it out, but unfortunately, this is not an ideal world and force is sometimes necessary to prevent the loss of innocent lives.

Really, though, war is ugly no matter how you slice it. All sides will always believe that they are fighting for the greater good, and both will be able to justify what they do in their own minds by saying, "it's for the greater good of these innocent people."

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You just might break through
To ever ever after

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I disagree. Killing enemy soldiers in war is more than justified and I would gladly do it if I get sent to war after i join the Marines.

The terrorists are way worse than us. If you think the number of deaths on 9/11 was bad, you should see what they do to villages full of people of an opposing Islamic sect (Sunni or Shi ite). You should also see what they do to their own children. Also perhaps you didn't know that the terrorists believe that they will go to heaven if they die while killing civilians, and that they will gain heavenly rewards for killing non-muslims.  

Oh and perhaps you've forgotten how the terrorists have made videos of themselves cutting off civilians' and soldiers' heads with a knife as they sing religious songs and praise God.  

I can show you such a video if you're not convinced.

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Do you want a list of the equally horrific things America has done, is still doing, funds others doing and enables? My-Lai Massacre being the obvious case.

So 4,000 US troops have died in Iraq. 93,000 Iraqi civilians. Sickening.

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"reclaiming public spaces as a space for public imagination
and enlightenment where they have become propagandistic
barriers to thought and awareness"

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well, you would love to believe that if the soldiers were not in the middle east, we'd be war free, wouldn't you?...bullshit...Osama attacked America on our soil...so you think we are supposed to let them get away with it and keep killing thousands of innocent people? you are a complete fool if you think that the soldiers are fighting for their country just to murder...you wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for soldiers fighting for your life...mainly because the nazis would have taken over and destroyed all of europe and most likely the world by now...so thank god you have those brave people willing to defend you.

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One terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. If you look into the reasons of the so-called "terrorism", then you'll find America's hands are redder than most, and the UK too.

The "America Saved Europe" shit makes me laugh. You were cowardly, sit back and watched Jews being massacred and Europe being devastated, only when your precious Pearl Harbour got hit did you join - and by that time Hitler was on the losing streak.

What you effectively did was come into the war at the last minute, speed up our victory and then take all the credit.

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"reclaiming public spaces as a space for public imagination
and enlightenment where they have become propagandistic
barriers to thought and awareness"

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Do you want a list of the equally horrific things America has done, is still doing, funds others doing and enables? My-Lai Massacre being the obvious case.

So 4,000 US troops have died in Iraq. 93,000 Iraqi civilians. Sickening.

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Um ok the My Lai massacre was 40 years ago. I'm talking about things the terrorists have done recently to make us go to war with them.

The vast majority of civilians that die in Iraq die by accident, they are not massacred by our troops purposely.

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One terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. If you look into the reasons of the so-called "terrorism", then you'll find America's hands are redder than most, and the UK too.

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The main reason the terrorists attacked is that America supports Israel. So because we send money to Israel which is our ally, and trade with them a lot, we deserve to be attacked on our homeland? Hell no.

The terrorists also attacked us because of all the "Muslims we killed" in Iraq in 1991. Funny, because Osama's country, Saudi Arabia, asked for our help against Iraq. Osama offered to send Al-Qaeda troops to Iraq to help Saudi Arabia but the Saudis wanted the US' help instead. So why would Osama be angry that we were helping his country against his countrt's enemy? Because he is a twisted, evil extremist. He believes US troops are not allowed to kill Muslims because they are non-muslims. So he claims that the US is evil for attacking Iraq in 1991. Strange isnt it?  This is also funny because in the 80s when the US was funding Al-Qaeda to fight against the Russians, Osama didn't complain about the US being on Muslim land at all. Hypocrite much?

Now hopefully you've gained some more insight into the terrorists' true reasons for attacking us: They have evil, twisted extremist beliefs, they are traitors, and hypocrites.

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The "America Saved Europe" shit makes me laugh. You were cowardly, sit back and watched Jews being massacred and Europe being devastated, only when your precious Pearl Harbour got hit did you join - and by that time Hitler was on the losing streak.

What you effectively did was come into the war at the last minute, speed up our victory and then take all the credit.

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If i'm not mistaken, in 1941 the world did not know about the Jews being massacred. They knew the Germans didn't like Jews, but they didn't know the Nazis were committing genocide. How could they have known when no German death camps had been discovered yet? In 1941 the Germans were still quite strong. We came into the war in late (December) 1941, about 3.5 years before the end of the war which had started in Sept. 1939. If you can do the math, we were there for over 50% of the war, therefore the majority of the war.

Yes we did speed up the victory against the Nazis. And before we actually sent troops, we were always sending money and equipment to Britain and other allies. And we liberated our share of nations including France. We then went on towards Berlin, destroying countless German positions and taking back many cities on the way.

We almost single handedly destroyed the Japanese Navy completely, and took all of their positions in the Pacific. During the war in the pacific we also protected Australia from invasion by the Japanese. We then ended the war with the nuclear bomb.

So yes America did help to save Europe, not single handedly but they played a HUGE part. And we defeated Japan.

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