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Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:42 am on July 22, 2008

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Quote: from annsmith at 4:22 am on July 21, 2008

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A very good question.    
  I believe that we have no free will.

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Disagree.

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I find it hard to understand that we all make so many choices on a daily basis and yet people can say that free will doesn't exist. Sounds like an easy way to blame anything that goes wrong on the lack of free will.

And refer to Event Horizon's post about God existing outside of the boundaries of time.

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Can you tell me if god exists inside the universe aswell?

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Khadgar(3), Dreamwaver and Tavis(11)
Noranora(14), Derek08(21)

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Event Horrison
"P1. God creates Universe  
C1. Therefore God exists outside of the Universe"

Can you tell me if god exists inside the universe aswell?

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Event Horrison
"P1. God creates Universe  
C1. Therefore God exists outside of the Universe"

Can you tell me if god exists inside the universe aswell?

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How can I comment on that...

He may very well be able to exist, somehow, in our Universe. But what is certain is, if God does exist, and if God did create the Universe, He would HAVE to exist outside of it.
[ie. he exists outside of our universe, but may be able to reach in from time to time, or perhaps our universe is like an extension of God.]

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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

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Quote: from justin1990rm at 1:12 pm on July 21, 2008

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Event Horrison  
 "P1. God creates Universe    
 C1. Therefore God exists outside of the Universe"  

 Can you tell me if god exists inside the universe aswell?

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How can I comment on that...  

He may very well be able to exist, somehow, in our Universe. But what is certain is, if God does exist, and if God did create the Universe, He would HAVE to exist outside of it.  
[ie. he exists outside of our universe, but may be able to reach in from time to time, or perhaps our universe is like an extension of God.]

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Or perhaps conventional logic doesn't apply to God and  since he can do anything, he can exist both in and outside of our universe.

Are you we being selective with the applicability of our logic?

It hypocricy to apply conventional rings of logic in some cases when pertaining to God but in other cases cast such movements aside simply because one has to option to say God can do anything. Does anyone follow me?

Post edited at 3:19 pm on July 21, 2008 by Keile

2. I have no idea what you are saying.

First you say god can do anything, then you say it is hypocritical to both apply logic to god and then to say god can do anything.

3. The "God can do anything" bit only rules out logic referring to the NATURE of God. Not the implications thereof.

[Ie. Logic says God must be blue would be considered illogical, since logic can't determine the nature of God. However, the statement, "If god created the universe, then god transcends it, therefore God transcends time" does not speak about the nature of god, but the implications of the idea of God.]

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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

but if he exists inside the universe the rules have to apply to him; dont really have proof for this but, i think a prerequisite of existing in the universe is to be bound by its laws

god may have existed in the universe as jesus (religous people need to confirm this) so at that point the rules must of applied to him

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Khadgar(3), Dreamwaver and Tavis(11)
Noranora(14), Derek08(21)

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ok i agree with you that if god exists outside of the universe then the rules of the universe dont apply to him

but if he exists inside the universe the rules have to apply to him; dont really have proof for this but, i think a prerequisite of existing in the universe is to be bound by its laws

god may have existed in the universe as jesus (religous people need to confirm this) so at that point the rules must of applied to him

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Next.
Justin. If you are using the Christian ideal of God, then you must also accept that God is all powerful, and can do whatever he wants. If he can create the laws of the universe, surely he can bend them, or even change them for whatever reason and in whatever context He would choose. Even through his "son".

again, if god created the Universe, he CAN NOT exist solely in it. Then, if he transcends our universe, and can still enter it, why must he be bound by our physical law. Surely you would not argue that it is physically possible [according to known laws] to exit and enter our UNIVERSE? Then why argue that point?

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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

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Quote: from justin1990rm at 11:17 am on July 22, 2008

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ok i agree with you that if god exists outside of the universe then the rules of the universe dont apply to him  

 but if he exists inside the universe the rules have to apply to him; dont really have proof for this but, i think a prerequisite of existing in the universe is to be bound by its laws  

 god may have existed in the universe as jesus (religous people need to confirm this) so at that point the rules must of applied to him

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And what 'law of the universe' would apply that would prevent Him from knowing what you have done tomorrow or next week or next year?

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again, if god created the Universe, he CAN NOT exist solely in it.

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What makes you think that? Couldn't this god've created a universe that entirely encompassed him, and within which he was bound (at least as long as he continued to choose to be limited to it)?

I see no reason to think a god couldn't or wouldn't create a universe within which to be limited.

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ню вит хуйс

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Nor has he proven how even if GOD were to know what actions you have done tomorrow replaces his freedom to make his particular judgment or actions otherwise.

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If Jehovah knows all that will be, nothing can happen that is not as he knows it will be. If Jehovah created the universe, and exists outside of it's time (so, say, he created a Polaroid snapshot of everything that is, was, will be), where is there room for our actions to actually happen? For our choices to be actually made? Unless Jehovah chose to limit himself to time (He might've, why wouldn't he?) he had to've created everything as a solid diorama, with all the actions already done.

Post edited at 10:41 pm on July 22, 2008 by Shaknbake

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ню вит хуйс

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Quote: from Soren Kierkegaard at 12:19 pm on July 22, 2008

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Nor has he proven how even if GOD were to know what actions you have done tomorrow replaces his freedom to make his particular judgment or actions otherwise.

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If Jehovah knows all that will be, nothing can happen that is not as he knows it will be. If Jehovah created the universe, and exists outside of it's time (so, say, he created a Polaroid snapshot of everything that is, was, will be), where is there room for our actions to actually happen? For our choices to be actually made? Unless Jehovah chose to limit himself to time (He might've, why wouldn't he?) he had to've created everything as a solid diorama, with all the actions already done.

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If you're unable to know of the outcomes until after causality, Shake, how can you possibly account for the knowledge of a deity over whether or not simply knowing directly influences your actions without any personal freedom.  This premise completely removes the burden of guilt and any responsibility for future actions, which directly violates any premise of Freedom of Will and Choice.


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