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Do we have free will if god is all knowing? |
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 Replies: 136 — Last Post July 29 1:45pm by justin1990rm
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Shaknbake
Enlightened One
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Quote: from Soren Kierkegaard at 10:56 pm on July 22, 2008
 Once again, even if the polaroids were taken before your future actions, they still do not remove the premise of your freedom to choose to act otherwise. The original OP *clip* 
First of all, let's leave the original OP out of this. Justin comes off like a bit of a prick, and I don't really care to include the talk of theoretical rape nonsense, personally. Yes, if the Polaroid is set in stone (deary, these analogies are really stacking up), as it must be if Jehovah acted outside of the confines of our time, nothing can be done that does not already exist in the future. Though I perceive my movements, my lifeline, my making choices, I cannot do anything other than what is already in the picture. This is so absolutely basic, if you can't come to agree on that, the discussion is pointless. Nothing can happen that isn't already a part of Jehovah's created timeline. I have no free will to make my choices if I cannot make choices other than those in the picture. Period. Basically: It doesn't matter that we think we make choices. Our perception would be incorrect. We're not making choices, we're a following the pattern in our behavior that is set in its nature by Jehovah. You can consider the rights and wrongs, and you will consider them exactly as Jehovah knew you would. You follow the railway of your actions along the only path it can take. How can you as a created being take responsibility for making choices which were inevitable?
This premise completely removes the burden of guilt and any responsibility for future actions, which directly violates any premise of Freedom of Will and Choice.
Isn't that the point of the thread? This is about whether or not that premise (freedom of Will and Choice) is valid in a universe created by Jehovah. Post edited at 11:08 pm on July 22, 2008 by Shaknbake
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ню вит хуйс
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Event Horizon
Dairy Product Addict
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You are wrong shake.
You are thinking about this polaroid as being taken BEFORE our time has finished. That is not the case. Read MY original post. eh, I'll just post the gist of it here again.
P1. In life you can make decisions
C1. You make decisions P2. You can not make two decisions at once [ie. you can't sleep and not sleep at the same time] C2. Therefore, it is certain that after your life is completed [when you die] you will have made a certain train of decisions, ONE single set of choices that led to your death. You will have followed ONE PATH only. P3. God created the universe and is allknowing
C3. God must transcend our universe, since you can not have existed in something that did not exist before you created it. P4. Time is a construct of our Universe, as it is merely a dimension of Space-time.
C4. God must transcend time, since time is a construct of our universe, and [C3] Since God transcends time, he does not follow us through time. He doesn't watch you ride your bike down the street. You having rode your bike down the street is merely a given. Since time is irrelevant from God's perspective, we all live out our lives, make certain choices, and follow different paths. This all happens and is part of a GRAND PICTURE, if you will.
However, God TRANSCENDS time, so a God would see what you do at all times in history. This is not because you don't have a choice, you do, but it is inevitable that you will make A choice, that just happens to be the one you choose.
You have all the freedom to choose whatever decision you desire, that is not taken away, but you WILL choose one, and that is why it is known. Now. Another idea of why god can be all-knowing and still not go against free will. P1. God is All-knowing
C1. God knows ALL things, things you can do, things you can't do P2. Making decisions leads to more decisions, and so on
C2. If [C1] and [P2], then God knows all branches of choices that you could make. ex. At time [a] you are presented with choices x,y, and z. You choose z. Then at time you are given a different set of choices x, y, and z, where you choose y.
You have now followed path ZY, this continues until you die and are left with ZY...XZYZXY...YXZYZX [dead]. However, at time A, you could have chosen Y, instead, and liven a COMPLETELY different path.
or even less altered, you could have chosen Y instead of X right before your death [in the original path] and have lived a different path.
Countless trillions of paths are possible given the choices we are presented with and the decision trees we could possibly take.
However, if God is all-knowing, then he KNOWS all of these paths. He knows what you CAN do in all situations, and then can narrow them down as you go along [this argument I don't fully believe, since I do believe that God would have to transcend time if he existed.
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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome. --Isaac Asimov
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( justin1990rm )
Professional
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i only have something to say about ur last argument, i wouldnt call that being all knowing, instead it is knowing all the possibilities. if i roll a dice i know which possibilities are possibile 1,2,3,4,5,6, but i do not know which number i will get
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Khadgar(3), Dreamwaver and Tavis(11)
Noranora(14), Derek08(21)
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PewPew
Wealthy Hobo
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Quote: from Event Horizon at 9:17 am on July 23, 2008
You are still thinking linearly. We don't have a future from God's perspective. He does not know what happens in the future, he knows what happens. Basically the idea is that he has seen what you choose at the time before, during and after you exist.
There is a vast difference between knowing what you WILL choose, and knowing what you DO choose.
Simply because he knows that you choose that decision does not mean that you HAD to, it means that you DID. I told you the second one is just another example, I don't particularly agree with it, but it works none-the-less. depending on how "all knowing" you want your god to be, and whether or not you accept that he transcends time. forget about that one. don't just reply to my post. Wait a little while and THINK about it.
He wouldn't see 'past, present, future' in terms of himself, he wouldn't have a future. But he will see our timeline as linear. He won't see it as future, as yet to happen, because to him time does not apply. But he will see it as future relative to us, sort of the way we are trying to postulate how things will look from his perspective, he will see how things look from our perspective as well. That for him our time will exist as < o > But he will also be able to see time from our perspective as < ------ >(otherwise it would be impossible to determine anything, if there isn't an order to events).
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Mankind shall never be truly free
until the last king is hanged with the guts of the last priest. -Voltaire
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Event Horizon
Dairy Product Addict
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Quote: from PewPew at 9:40 am on July 23, 2008
He wouldn't see 'past, present, future' in terms of himself, he wouldn't have a future. But he will see our timeline as linear. He won't see it as future, as yet to happen, because to him time does not apply. But he will see it as future relative to us, sort of the way we are trying to postulate how things will look from his perspective, he will see how things look from our perspective as well.
You aren't thinking about it, you are getting one idea and just throwing it out there. 1. You can't say that there is no time for God. The only time claim that I make is that God transcends the time that is held in our universe. Nothing more. Time throughout our universe is not constant, and so it is likely that god does not follow each time-line as a constant, but merely looks at it as a picture of what happens. What he see's from our perspective is irrelevant. Why would God want to look at our existence from the perspective of us, when he could look at it from the perspective of God? Again. We WILL make a choice at every time we are presented with one [which, one could argue is every instant we exist] the fact that we do means that in the end we only make ONE specific path through life. If God transcends time, then he does not exist only in the present, he exists before the present [albeit during OUR present], during, and after, in the same "god-present". He would see what you do when you do it, but that instant might be in the future, relative to you.
otherwise it would be impossible to determine anything, if there isn't an order to events.
Who ever said anything about no order? You will still have that PATH OF EVENTS that you will [have] follow[ed]. The point is that: Just because God has seen what you DO, does not mean that you CAN'T do anything else, It means that you DON'T.
There is a huge difference between God making one action the only thing you can do, and god merely knowing the choice you make because he exists in our respective future as well. It is basically like looking back to the past to see what you DID, but doing the looking back, from the past. [since, again, he exists in both the past, present, and future]
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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome. --Isaac Asimov
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Soren Kierkegaard
Wealthy Hobo
 Patron
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Quote: from Shaknbake at 11:06 pm on July 22, 2008
Quote: from Soren Kierkegaard at 10:56 pm on July 22, 2008
Once again, even if the polaroids were taken before your future actions, they still do not remove the premise of your freedom to choose to act otherwise. The original OP *clip*
First of all, let's leave the original OP out of this. Justin comes off like a bit of a prick, and I don't really care to include the talk of theoretical rape nonsense, personally. Yes, if the Polaroid is set in stone (deary, these analogies are really stacking up), as it must be if Jehovah acted outside of the confines of our time, nothing can be done that does not already exist in the future. Though I perceive my movements, my lifeline, my making choices, I cannot do anything other than what is already in the picture. This is so absolutely basic, if you can't come to agree on that, the discussion is pointless. Nothing can happen that isn't already a part of Jehovah's created timeline. I have no free will to make my choices if I cannot make choices other than those in the picture. Period. Basically: It doesn't matter that we think we make choices. Our perception would be incorrect. We're not making choices, we're a following the pattern in our behavior that is set in its nature by Jehovah. You can consider the rights and wrongs, and you will consider them exactly as Jehovah knew you would. You follow the railway of your actions along the only path it can take. How can you as a created being take responsibility for making choices which were inevitable?
This premise completely removes the burden of guilt and any responsibility for future actions, which directly violates any premise of Freedom of Will and Choice.
Isn't that the point of the thread? This is about whether or not that premise (freedom of Will and Choice) is valid in a universe created by Jehovah.
First, I am glad to see that you and I both agree with Justin is a complete and total douche. I've not considered any of his dribble worth mentioning or commenting over. Second, I have never agreed with Predestination, or that our actions are known/decided prior to our existence. However, if you've ever heard of the Openness Theory expressed as a response to allegations to a possible immutable nature to God, I believe in an extreme Foreknowledge of our actions besides definite restrictions. If God knows every possible outcome or choice, you simply choosing which actions to demonstrate would not be an example of him learning if he were to display emotion afterward. The simplest example I can think of to explain this point is the difference between a man and God sitting on a cliff overlooking a railway where two trains are going full speed directly toward one another. Neither the man nor God have caused this event to happen, and the man is equally powerless as he it bound by causality. There are quite literally a infinite amount of possibilities this scenario can demonstrate, but the difference between the man and God is that God's knowledge of the event has not changed the outcome. If they remain at the same speed, they'll most likely collide. If they are at a far enough distance away, they could hit the brakes immediately in order to prevent from having the outcome more destructive. There could be a break in the railway causing another one of the trains to fall to the side before being hit by the other. An asteroid, or meteorite could strike either train in the front car derailing the corresponding cars behind them and in front. Now, if we're not satisfied with knowledge, you could argue that God could do something about this event. I'll answer with, "How and why must God personally interact whenever troubles abound in order for his creation to acknowledge and adhere to his existence? And this is The Problem of Pain instead of whether or not choices and outcomes are decided prior to your existence." God could know infinitely or know every possible outcome (but choose to remain ignorant until the consequences are met with actions), however that still does not explain how you haven't any freedom to choose the corresponding choices afterward. Neither the man, nor God, are willing to do anything to directly or indirectly cause the event to occur, they're just witnessing from afar. And at this point, the man can use literally every means of scientific/mathematical research and study to map out every impact where each corresponding piece to either train would land afterward (whereas God simply would know or have every possible outcome correspond with what had been know prior, but without his direct involvement) and this is the end of this example. Third, this is a very important point that I have made in the previous posts, and I shall not repeat myself once more. Simply disagreeing with one another does not mean that I am ignorant over what you're specifically talking about. I do agree that if we cannot agree on a common ground before the debate that this situation is quite useless instead of beneficial.
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Shaknbake
Enlightened One
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Quote: from Event Horizon at 8:28 am on July 23, 2008
You are wrong shake.
You are thinking about this polaroid as being taken BEFORE our time has finished. That is not the case.
It is the case. We're thinking exactly the same way, you and I, though we're reaching different conclusions. I perceive myself making choices. History is fixed, because the picture (from God's perspective) is already finished, with all events in the timeline already laid out. I understand what you mean, saying that all the choices I will make are being made by me, but that I'll never make any that aren't already in the future picture. I agree. This brings up two different issues, as long as we're talking about Jehovah and not a theoretical god (if we're talking a theoretical god, only one issue is raised). First of all, If Jehovah created the universe in full knowledge of all choices to be made and events to occur, we have to conclude that it was Jehovah's will that everything be as it is. Hence, he wanted some (or most) of us to suffer in Hell, wanted us to sin, wanted creation to be ruined. This is unavoidable. The second issue, is that if Jehovah (or theoretigod) created the universe as a fixed timeline, it doesn't matter that I'm making all the choices that I'm going to make. You think that even though I'm following a determined sequence of choices and actions, I'm still using my free will to "create" that chain somehow. This can't be. Even if I perceive there to be multiple choices (1. Steal the apple, 2. Don't steal the apple) I don't have the freedom to choose to do anything that is not already been chosen. If God transcends space-time, God created our world as a determined timeline, and I have no freedom to choose what to do even though I perceive that I do.
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ню вит хуйс
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Forever Angel
Alone in the Darkness
 Sustainer
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Quote: from Shaknbake at 4:23 pm on July 23, 2008
Quote: from Event Horizon at 8:28 am on July 23, 2008
You are wrong shake.
You are thinking about this polaroid as being taken BEFORE our time has finished. That is not the case.
It is the case. We're thinking exactly the same way, you and I, though we're reaching different conclusions. I perceive myself making choices. History is fixed, because the picture (from God's perspective) is already finished, with all events in the timeline already laid out. I understand what you mean, saying that all the choices I will make are being made by me, but that I'll never make any that aren't already in the future picture. I agree. This brings up two different issues, as long as we're talking about Jehovah and not a theoretical god (if we're talking a theoretical god, only one issue is raised). First of all, If Jehovah created the universe in full knowledge of all choices to be made and events to occur, we have to conclude that it was Jehovah's will that everything be as it is. Hence, he wanted some (or most) of us to suffer in Hell, wanted us to sin, wanted creation to be ruined. This is unavoidable. The second issue, is that if Jehovah (or theoretigod) created the universe as a fixed timeline, it doesn't matter that I'm making all the choices that I'm going to make. You think that even though I'm following a determined sequence of choices and actions, I'm still using my free will to "create" that chain somehow. This can't be. Even if I perceive there to be multiple choices (1. Steal the apple, 2. Don't steal the apple) I don't have the freedom to choose to do anything that is not already been chosen. If God transcends space-time, God created our world as a determined timeline, and I have no freedom to choose what to do even though I perceive that I do.
There is a young man who is supposed to mow the lawn on at least a weekly basis, but has been putting it off for awhile now. It's starting to look a little ragged. But his mother somehow shames him into doing it today. It's such a momentous occasion she decides to make a video of it. The camera also imprints the date on the video. As the young man finishes mowing, the mailman arrives and hands him a small package with yesterday's postmark on it. Inside the package is a DVD. He goes in the house and watches it. It's the movie his mother made, date-stamp and all. Does that mean he had no choice but to mow the lawn? No, it doesn't. It doesn't pre-determine his actions at all. Had he chosen differently, the video, if it arrived, would simply have shown whatever alternative choice he made. The choice would still have been his. The timeline is not fixed nor is God's view of it.
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"God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein
"God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking
Pectus Pectoris Memor
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Event Horizon
Dairy Product Addict
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Quote: from Shaknbake at 2:23 pm on July 23, 2008
Quote: from Event Horizon at 8:28 am on July 23, 2008
You are wrong shake.
You are thinking about this polaroid as being taken BEFORE our time has finished. That is not the case.
It is the case. We're thinking exactly the same way, you and I, though we're reaching different conclusions. I perceive myself making choices. History is fixed, because the picture (from God's perspective) is already finished, with all events in the timeline already laid out. I understand what you mean, saying that all the choices I will make are being made by me, but that I'll never make any that aren't already in the future picture. I agree. This brings up two different issues, as long as we're talking about Jehovah and not a theoretical god (if we're talking a theoretical god, only one issue is raised). First of all, If Jehovah created the universe in full knowledge of all choices to be made and events to occur, we have to conclude that it was Jehovah's will that everything be as it is. Hence, he wanted some (or most) of us to suffer in Hell, wanted us to sin, wanted creation to be ruined. This is unavoidable. The second issue, is that if Jehovah (or theoretigod) created the universe as a fixed timeline, it doesn't matter that I'm making all the choices that I'm going to make. You think that even though I'm following a determined sequence of choices and actions, I'm still using my free will to "create" that chain somehow. This can't be. Even if I perceive there to be multiple choices (1. Steal the apple, 2. Don't steal the apple) I don't have the freedom to choose to do anything that is not already been chosen. If God transcends space-time, God created our world as a determined timeline, and I have no freedom to choose what to do even though I perceive that I do.
Again... wrong.
god's KNOWLEDGE of what you will do in the future, or rather, what you have already done in the future, does not mean that you HAD to make those choices. Having the foreknowledge of what you choose, because God also exists in --what we perceive as-- the future, does not equate to a determined action. You have all the free will you want, he just knows what you choose. About the "God has a plan" thing.
you say that without creating a predestined path, god is ignorant as to the choices we make. I say that Foreknowledge and Predestination are VASTLY different ideas.
God doesn't have to CHOOSE what we will do [predestination] in order to KNOW what we will do [Foreknowledge]. If we are arguing about "God's Plan" and Predestination, then I agree, there is nothing to argue about. If we are predestined to do everything in our lives, then we have no free will. However, If "God's Plan" isn't predestination, but perhaps a few obstacles or upheavals that are presented to us to deal with as we do [to try and save us, whatever] then a Plan would merely be an interference, and not an ejection of free will.
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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome. --Isaac Asimov
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Shaknbake
Enlightened One
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Quote: from Event Horizon at 5:13 pm on July 23, 2008
god's KNOWLEDGE of what you will do in the future, or rather, what you have already done in the future, does not mean that you HAD to make those choices.
First off, it's generally poor form to open with "You're wrong." On to the point, yes it does. If God exists outside of our time then everything has already occurred from his perspective. Our perspective shows us making choices, but from his perspective everything is already finished. Nothing can happen that isn't how God already sees it. Nothing can happen that isn't already part of the picture. You contest that it's not "We can't do" it's that "We won't do." This can't be. If the path is already set (because God can see the path as it is, not as it will be. He exists outside of time, you know) no choices are actually being made, simply the pattern being followed. So. God either intentionally limited himself to our timeline, and doesn't know all that we will do but does know all that we can do, or there is no free will.
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ню вит хуйс
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