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Quote: from Event Horizon at 5:13 pm on July 23, 2008

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god's KNOWLEDGE of what you will do in the future, or rather, what you have already done in the future, does not mean that you HAD to make those choices.

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First off, it's generally poor form to open with "You're wrong."  

On to the point, yes it does. If God exists outside of our time then everything has already occurred from his perspective. Our perspective shows us making choices, but from his perspective everything is already finished. Nothing can happen that isn't how God already sees it. Nothing can happen that isn't already part of the picture.

You contest that it's not "We can't do" it's that "We won't do."

This can't be. If the path is already set (because God can see the path as it is, not as it will be. He exists outside of time, you know) no choices are actually being made, simply the pattern being followed.  

So. God either intentionally limited himself to our timeline, and doesn't know all that we will do but does know all that we can do, or there is no free will.

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I agree that it is poor form, But in this case, you ARE wrong.

You accept that he exists outside time and that everything has already happened, yet you deny the very point that that idea implicates.
From the perspective of God we ALREADY HAVE made the choices we will make. We have already lived and made those choices.
I've already chosen where I want to work, I've already gotten married at such and such a place and named my kids, etc. All of that stuff, I'VE ALREADY DONE, from God's perspective, but I've yet to do them from mine.
This is the point you are not wrapping your head around.

You are looking at it as if god is seeing some future. He is not. He is looking at our timeline AFTER it has been completed.

I don't mean to sound patronizing, but you just aren't getting the point.

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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 3:12 pm on July 23, 2008

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nor is God's view of it.

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So God limits himself to our timeline? He can't (or doesn't choose to, rather) see all that we will do, simply all that we can do?

If so, I'm not arguing with you. In THAT scenario, there can be free will. There's a difference between God knowing all the cans and knowing all the wills.

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See. you are still looking at it as a WILL. When in reality it would be a "Have done already in the future"

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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 3:12 pm on July 23, 2008

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nor is God's view of it.

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So God limits himself to our timeline? He can't (or doesn't choose to, rather) see all that we will do, simply all that we can do?

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I agree that it is poor form, But in this case, you ARE wrong.

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When you feel someone is wrong, you express why throughout your post, and you only make the statement outright if it helps. It does not, in this case. Given that you know you shouldn't be opening with "You're wrong," why are you continuing to do so?

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You accept that he exists outside time and that everything has already happened, yet you deny the very point that that idea implicates.

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I actually do get what you're trying to say, I just feel you're in error in your thinking. People can get your point and still disagree, interestingly enough.

The fact that we [perceive] a linear timeline means nothing. For God to exist outside our timeline, he has to have realized (created, formed, whatever) our universe as a fixed form. [The fact that we perceive a progression of time is irrelevant, as no such progression can actually be.] For God to exist outside of time, and see us as a complete picture, our fate has to already be set, created as a fixed product. There is no room in this for us to actually do anything but experience the fate that is already laid out.

It is [you] who is denying the implications of God existing outside of time, not me.

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ню вит хуйс

All of the events of the universe are merely THERE in the universe god see's. However, our existence is so infinitely small compared to the infinite size of whatever realm god would exist in that we perceive it to be happening for billions of these things called "years".
For all that time to go by takes, for us, billions of years, but for god, it would be almost instantaneous. Which is why he would know everything.
He SEES the whole picture, and can then interject himself into our little time-frame [if we are accepting that he can exist with us].

I've opened with "you're wrong" because you are not grasping the implications of what I have said, and are arguing a completely different, and irrelevant point.

As for the Foreknowledge thing. Foreknowledge does NOT mean no free will.
If I KNOW that you will choose the red block over the blue block, and I offer you the two, I KNOW that you will choose the red, but you still CHOOSE the red. You had the OPTION to choose the blue, you just chose not to, and it was KNOWN that you would choose not too.

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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

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You are still thinking linearly, whether you want to accept it or not.  

All of the events of the universe are merely THERE in the universe god see's. However, our existence is so infinitely small compared to the infinite size of whatever realm god would exist in that we perceive it to be happening for billions of these things called "years".  
For all that time to go by takes, for us, billions of years, but for god, it would be almost instantaneous. Which is why he would know everything.  
He SEES the whole picture, and can then interject himself into our little time-frame [if we are accepting that he can exist with us].  

I've opened with "you're wrong" because you are not grasping the implications of what I have said, and are arguing a completely different, and irrelevant point.  

As for the Foreknowledge thing. Foreknowledge does NOT mean no free will.  
If I KNOW that you will choose the red block over the blue block, and I offer you the two, I KNOW that you will choose the red, but you still CHOOSE the red. You had the OPTION to choose the blue, you just chose not to, and it was KNOWN that you would choose not too.

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k1. u say things are instantaneous to god because
they are really short. being really short does not make something truly instantaneous.

2.foreknowledge does mean no free will. foreknowledge is only possible if things are predictable. things are only predictable if they follow rules. for u have to have true free will they must be based on internal things (whatever those things are..) that ultimately wont be affected by things "outside urself".
btw the brain is just an extension of the outside world
so whatever thinking you do is really external

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Khadgar(3), Dreamwaver and Tavis(11)
Noranora(14), Derek08(21)

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I've opened with "you're wrong" because you are not grasping the implications of what I have said, and are arguing a completely different, and irrelevant point.

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Let's make this simpler then. How 'bout you sum up your point so I can see what it is I'm supposed to be arguing with?

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ню вит хуйс

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Quote: from Event Horizon at 11:20 pm on July 26, 2008

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You are still thinking linearly, whether you want to accept it or not.  

 All of the events of the universe are merely THERE in the universe god see's. However, our existence is so infinitely small compared to the infinite size of whatever realm god would exist in that we perceive it to be happening for billions of these things called "years".  
 For all that time to go by takes, for us, billions of years, but for god, it would be almost instantaneous. Which is why he would know everything.  
 He SEES the whole picture, and can then interject himself into our little time-frame [if we are accepting that he can exist with us].  

 I've opened with "you're wrong" because you are not grasping the implications of what I have said, and are arguing a completely different, and irrelevant point.  

 As for the Foreknowledge thing. Foreknowledge does NOT mean no free will.  
 If I KNOW that you will choose the red block over the blue block, and I offer you the two, I KNOW that you will choose the red, but you still CHOOSE the red. You had the OPTION to choose the blue, you just chose not to, and it was KNOWN that you would choose not too.

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k1. u say things are instantaneous to god because
they are really short. being really short does not make something truly instantaneous.

2.foreknowledge does mean no free will. foreknowledge is only possible if things are predictable. things are only predictable if they follow rules. for u have to have true free will they must be based on internal things (whatever those things are..) that ultimately wont be affected by things "outside urself".
btw the brain is just an extension of the outside world
so whatever thinking you do is really external

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See, this is why I say, "You are wrong"

Foreknowledge in THIS case does not mean "I know what you WILL do". In this case, the foreknowledge comes from the God knowing what you HAVE DONE in the future.

If god knows, because he exists in all time-frames [before, during, and after] that when you are faced with either looking left or looking right first at a crosswalk, you choose looking right first [this is knowledge that comes from seeing from the future, back] when the time comes for you to make that decision, he has seen what you choose.

It doesn't mean you COULDN'T pick left first, you just DON'T. Does that make sense to you?

It is difficult to make clear. basically, god only knows that which you will do because at some point, you DO something, and god exists in the future as well as the present.

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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

u dont know for sure that there wasnt time before the universe+ u dont know for sure the nature of gods time +u dont dont know for sure if god is beyond time +u dont know for sure if time is part of the universe

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Khadgar(3), Dreamwaver and Tavis(11)
Noranora(14), Derek08(21)

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well i think ur god being beyond time is a weak argument as it is a basically a guess

u dont know for sure that there wasnt time before the universe+ u dont know for sure the nature of gods time +u dont dont know for sure if god is beyond time +u dont know for sure if time is part of the universe

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But I'm not the one arguing AGAINST God.
It was the initial claim that "God being all-knowing goes against free-will" which means that we are making claims about God.
Since we are talking about "God" and not, "a god", and since we already assumed the notion that, "God is all-knowing" I assumed that we were talking about the Christian God, which is the only god this argument really works for. [This encapsulates Judaism and Islam as well, same Abrahamic idea of God]

Then I posted a proof that god must exist outside time, since time is not only relative, but merely a dimension of our space-time. Since our Space-time continuum is a construct of the Universe, and the Universe was supposedly created by God, then God CAN NOT exist in the Universe [or at least, be bound by universal laws]. Then, if time is a construct of the universe, God is not bound by time. get it?

And time [as you are thinking about it] does not exist as an entity, so it HAS to be a product of this universe. It is an interaction of existing matter and entropy. Saying time is anything else than a mathematical relationship that we recognize because of cognitive, evolutionary development is ignorant.

If you don't understand the argument, don't argue against it.

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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

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If you don't understand the argument, don't argue against it.

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