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Tbh should've drafted the jews instead and sent them to the frontlines

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So there could be mass defections and/or revolts?

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whoisabs i'm not sure
Guess who's back?

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He probably could have taken all of Europe + if he hadn't attacked Stalin.

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Too bad Stalin was in control of much of Europe, and places like Spain and Italy were allies of Germany?

Hitler's stated goal was the elimination of communism, and the USSR was the main source of communism at the time.  He never had any serious problems with the British and only wanted the German territories taken away from them a little over a decade ago back from France.

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whoisabs i'm not sure
Guess who's back?

We know it was stupid and we know it was an atrocity. Saying Hitler was good at what he did doesn't change that. This thread doesn't make sense.

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Too bad Stalin was in control of much of Europe

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Hitler's stated goal was the elimination of communism

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Oh, stop whining.

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Hilter was one of the most charismatic leader of his time. In the wake of WWI and Germany's economic meltdown, he was able to reinvigorate his people.

You should really just stick to the "Hilter sucks because he's responsible for the Holocaust" argument. The "bad leader" argument really doesn't work in this case.

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A good leader doesn't make your country get out of the dumps using other ppl backs. A good leader makes your country great by liberating your own ppl and giving it more real chances by themselves. A good leader doesn't pit one group of ppl against the other and split up your ppl based on religion or on race. A good leader unites ALL the ppl in the country.

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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Quote: from dooby54 at 12:23 am on July 18, 2008

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holocaust.about.com  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust  

How about those for the mel-gibson-tryhard. Or how about the tatooed numbers on my friends grandfathers arm. HOw about the hundreds of hours of video confessions of Nazi and Einsatzgruppen  
 or the hundreds of hours of testimonies.  
Or maby the standing deathcamps like Auchwitz, Belzec or Chemlo  

That enough evidence or is that loser just plain retarded.

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Evidence is something that others can verify.  That is not evidence, though it can certainly be made into evidence, if it has not already.

Personally, I don't treat confessions by anyone as cold hard truth.  Hindsight bias, the psychological concept of disassociation (frequently occurs among those who've experienced trauma), etc.  Many of the same reasons why testimonials aren't taken at face value in a court of law.  Relying on confessions and testimonials alone will get you nowhere, however if you manage to combine it with other evidence that proves it, it would only serve to reinforce what you say.

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Your argument that the evidence give isn't enough to prove the existence of the holocaust is simply ridiculous.

Indeed, first hand account and eyewitnesses should be enough to proves belong reasonable doubt; this includes testimony from not only the survivors, but the Allied forces who went to the camps and German officials. (Also note, that eyewitnesses are often considered strong evidence in most courts of law.) So really, like most holocaust deniers, you are setting an unreasonable standards for evidence.

Quote: from Bud2400 at 12:41 am on July 18, 2008

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Quote: from dooby54 at 12:37 am on July 18, 2008

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Fine, how about the death camps or the many tatoos? How about the millions of bodies buried and uncovered in and around NAzi germany Post WW2?

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Personally, I think anybody who denies that Jews were sent to camps is a fool.  It's simple enough providing Nazi documents as evidence.

However, holocaust deniers deny three specific things:

1) The number of Jews who died is as high as 6 million.
2) The Nazis intended to kill all Jews.
3) The Nazis gassed the Jews.

There is no direct evidence for any of these three things, and believe me, I've looked.  Tattoos, the fact that these camps existed, the dead bodies, etc. could all fit in with the theory that they were labor camps where massive numbers of Jews died off prior to the liberation due to the declining situation in Germany as the Soviets and Allies closed in on Germany, causing less food and resources to be available to the Jews, resulting in widespread disease as well, and yada yada.

It takes some analysis to refute these three points which deniers typically deny.  It's not as easy as you'd be led to believe.

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Of course Nazi officials did destroy much of their documentation, they were not able to destroy all of it before the Allies took control. So if you really don't believe the testimony of thousands of survivors, there is too much physical evidence to depute:

Not only were thousands of body found (from mass graves) and examined cyanide residue extracted from the walls of gas chambers, but actual government orders for tons of poisons (proof of gassing), reports on the numbers of Jews killed, and there are hundreds of thousands of letters, speeches, memoirs, and diaries that all attest to the same thing. And of course, inferential evidence. If you are looking at Jewish population demographics, you will find that after WWII, the world is missing about 6 million. Where did they go?

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Evolutionism
本 諾

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Quote: from Evolutionism at 11:53 pm on July 17, 2008

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Hilter was one of the most charismatic leader of his time. In the wake of WWI and Germany's economic meltdown, he was able to reinvigorate his people.  

 You should really just stick to the "Hilter sucks because he's responsible for the Holocaust" argument. The "bad leader" argument really doesn't work in this case.

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charismatic leader =/= good leader.

A good leader doesn't make your country get out of the dumps using other ppl backs. A good leader makes your country great by liberating your own ppl and giving it more real chances by themselves. A good leader doesn't pit one group of ppl against the other and split up your ppl based on religion or on race. A good leader unites ALL the ppl in the country.

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In simpler terms.
A good leader isn't fascist.

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The world is only as sweet as you make it and only as terrible as you see it

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Quote: from Bud2400 at 12:34 am on July 18, 2008

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Quote: from dooby54 at 12:23 am on July 18, 2008

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holocaust.about.com  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust  

 How about those for the mel-gibson-tryhard. Or how about the tatooed numbers on my friends grandfathers arm. HOw about the hundreds of hours of video confessions of Nazi and Einsatzgruppen  
  or the hundreds of hours of testimonies.  
 Or maby the standing deathcamps like Auchwitz, Belzec or Chemlo  

 That enough evidence or is that loser just plain retarded.

---

 

 
 Evidence is something that others can verify. That is not evidence, though it can certainly be made into evidence, if it has not already.  

 Personally, I don't treat confessions by anyone as cold hard truth. Hindsight bias, the psychological concept of disassociation (frequently occurs among those who've experienced trauma), etc. Many of the same reasons why testimonials aren't taken at face value in a court of law. Relying on confessions and testimonials alone will get you nowhere, however if you manage to combine it with other evidence that proves it, it would only serve to reinforce what you say.

---

Your argument that the evidence give isn't enough to prove the existence of the holocaust is simply ridiculous.

Indeed, first hand account and eyewitnesses should be enough to proves belong reasonable doubt; this includes testimony from not only the survivors, but the Allied forces who went to the camps and German officials. (Also note, that eyewitnesses are often considered strong evidence in most courts of law.) So really, like most holocaust deniers, you are setting an unreasonable standards for evidence.

Quote: from Bud2400 at 12:41 am on July 18, 2008

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Quote: from dooby54 at 12:37 am on July 18, 2008

---

Fine, how about the death camps or the many tatoos? How about the millions of bodies buried and uncovered in and around NAzi germany Post WW2?

---

 

 
 Personally, I think anybody who denies that Jews were sent to camps is a fool. It's simple enough providing Nazi documents as evidence.  

 However, holocaust deniers deny three specific things:  

 1) The number of Jews who died is as high as 6 million.  
 2) The Nazis intended to kill all Jews.  
 3) The Nazis gassed the Jews.  

 There is no direct evidence for any of these three things, and believe me, I've looked. Tattoos, the fact that these camps existed, the dead bodies, etc. could all fit in with the theory that they were labor camps where massive numbers of Jews died off prior to the liberation due to the declining situation in Germany as the Soviets and Allies closed in on Germany, causing less food and resources to be available to the Jews, resulting in widespread disease as well, and yada yada.  

 It takes some analysis to refute these three points which deniers typically deny. It's not as easy as you'd be led to believe.

---

 
Of course Nazi officials did destroy much of their documentation, they were not able to destroy all of it before the Allies took control. So if you really don't believe the testimony of thousands of survivors, there is too much physical evidence to depute:  

Not only were thousands of body found (from mass graves) and examined cyanide residue extracted from the walls of gas chambers, but actual government orders for tons of poisons (proof of gassing), reports on the numbers of Jews killed, and there are hundreds of thousands of letters, speeches, memoirs, and diaries that all attest to the same thing. And of course, inferential evidence. If you are looking at Jewish population demographics, you will find that after WWII, the world is missing about 6 million. Where did they go?

 

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You make a great point. In fact it was later revealed in testimonies from captured nazi's that they had destroyed about 9/10ths of their documentation at some locations at the time they were captured.

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You tried your best and you failed miserably.
The lesson is 'never try'- Homer Simpson - - BreakinTheHabit is my LW wifE!