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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 4:45 am on July 21, 2008

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How would that be bad if it wasn't put into practice? I mean, it's a weird belief and one that most people wouldn't hold, but if Joe Schmoe who holds it isn't skipping around raping people or encouraging others to do the same, how is it inherently bad?

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I don't have a really good way to answer this. Is a torture device bad when it is unused? Yes, I believe it is, because its nature (what it is created for, designed for, intended for) is bad. A belief can be bad in the same way.

Why is it so easy to attribute good and bad to human action but not to human idea?

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So you believe that things are inherently bad or good, not that they are bad and good depending on how they are used?

Do you believe the same of people? Are people inherently bad or good, not bad or good depending on their behavior?

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

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Quote: from Shaknbake at 5:47 pm on July 21, 2008

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 4:45 am on July 21, 2008

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How would that be bad if it wasn't put into practice? I mean, it's a weird belief and one that most people wouldn't hold, but if Joe Schmoe who holds it isn't skipping around raping people or encouraging others to do the same, how is it inherently bad?

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 I don't have a really good way to answer this. Is a torture device bad when it is unused? Yes, I believe it is, because its nature (what it is created for, designed for, intended for) is bad. A belief can be bad in the same way.  

 Why is it so easy to attribute good and bad to human action but not to human idea?

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So you believe that things are inherently bad or good, not that they are bad and good depending on how they are used?

Do you believe the same of people? Are people inherently bad or good, not bad or good depending on their behavior?

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So you believe that things are inherently bad or good, not that they are bad and good depending on how they are used?

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There are things that are neither bad nor good but which are made so by their use, and there are things that are bad or good by nature because of their design and intent, regardless of use. I don't believe everything is one or the other.

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Do you believe the same of people? Are people inherently bad or good, not bad or good depending on their behavior?

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I don't believe people are designed or fabricated as ideas and devices are, so no, the only thing that can make people good or bad is their behavior. An idea can be thought up that is bad by nature, whether practiced or not. People don't have a good or bad nature because they are agents that act on their own, not agents created with intent.

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"Hé! Donne-moi mon cadeau et on jasera après! Gros poilu!" - Asymptote

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Would the original idea of 'nuclear fission' fit into this argument?

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Perhaps. Like I said (just now, not earlier), I believe that neutral ideas and things can exist, but I don't agree that all beliefs, ideas, things are neutral by nature.

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"Hé! Donne-moi mon cadeau et on jasera après! Gros poilu!" - Asymptote

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Is the inherent goodness or badness of an idea or object an objective goodness or badness or is it subjective?

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Goodness and badness are always subjective. There is no objective good or bad nature, maybe objective beneficial/harmful natures, but not good/bad. My decision to believe that created devices and ideas have inherent good or bad or neutral nature is subjective, as is your decision to believe that nothing is good or bad except as involved in human action.

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"Hé! Donne-moi mon cadeau et on jasera après! Gros poilu!" - Asymptote

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There are no bad religions, or good religions. Religion is religion.

There are only people who use it for good and those who use it to excuse the most unspeakable evils.

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What she said.

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Drive slow homie.

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 5:04 pm on July 21, 2008

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Is the inherent goodness or badness of an idea or object an objective goodness or badness or is it subjective?

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Goodness and badness are always subjective. There is no objective good or bad nature, maybe objective beneficial/harmful natures, but not good/bad. My decision to believe that created devices and ideas have inherent good or bad or neutral nature is subjective, as is your decision to believe that nothing is good or bad except as involved in human action.

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If the whole thing is subjective then why even bother arguing, if there's no objective truth to the matter?

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

Religion is beautiful. The abuse of religion is horrid.
This applies to all religions I suppose.

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If the whole thing is subjective then why even bother arguing, if there's no objective truth to the matter?

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Because objective truth is always irrelevant when we're talking bad/good, good/evil and such. Do you suppose that something has no value or practical relevance to our thoughts and actions simply because it lacks objectivity?

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"Hé! Donne-moi mon cadeau et on jasera après! Gros poilu!" - Asymptote

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I never said that; what I did say is that if you accept that our opinions are both subjective, why bother to convince me that yours is correct?

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Because their subjectivity has nothing to do with how we treat them. When it comes to right and wrong, subjective and objective are often treated the same. You know this. Why try and convince someone that the death penalty is wrong, or war is wrong, or that raping prisoners is wrong, or torture is wrong? All of these things are ultimately subjective.

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"Hé! Donne-moi mon cadeau et on jasera après! Gros poilu!" - Asymptote