why?

sometimes its because i did not have any extra cash lying around. but usually its because I've gotten disgusted over delivery guy's hygiene.

if you're delivering pizza to my door and you've just made me too sick to eat my food you better believe I wont tip you.

I still feel guilty about it, but then I haven't enjoyed my meal, so screw it.

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This is true, you do have many other topics covering many other subjects.

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You'll notice around from when 2008 began to about May or June or so, a lot of my topics were about feminism and sexual equality / differences / whatever. Generally I'll see an issue and get to thinking about it, and it really doesn't leave my mind until either something else comes along or I just get busy.

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I mean come on.. "If Black People Are Poor Due to Racism and White Privilege... Then why are so many white people poor?" That could be the opening line to your Klan rally.

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Actually, that topic was aimed at discrediting white privilege more than anything. I find the arguments that all black people are poor due to racism, while it may be applicable for some, far too simplistic and broad of an argument, and necessarily ignores why white people are poor, and why quite a few blacks and other minorities are well off.

I think it's appropriate to say that proportionally, blacks are poorer than whites due to discrimination in the past, and then "structural racism" (not even sure if you could call it "racism," since the tendencies of it aren't aimed at discriminating any race, though since we have such a proportional number of blacks who are poor, it seems that way on the surface) inhibits those who are poor from succeeding more than those who are already well off, thus our problems of today. Thing is, as far as "structural racism" goes, it's a matter of figuring your way through the barriers, which anyone can do, but not all do for various reasons. This is why I tend to get a little miffed when I see blacks complaining about how they're poor because white people "keep them down" - I see it as completely redirecting the responsibility from themselves to others, thereby discouraging them from doing anything to help themselves out of a situation which they can certainly get out of.

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I know, if you had actually read my response, you would have seen that I said the topic itself was not racist. And you don't really seem to be calling for solutions...

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What solutions could I call for? I don't really even totally know why black people collectively tip as badly as they do. The point of this topic is to discuss that so maybe I can be enlightened to something, and then perhaps I could consider a solution.

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all you are doing is in fact "reinforces negative images and stereotypes against blacks."

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By presenting data I've collected and showing this truth, which confirms stereotypes prevalent throughout the service industry? I haven't twisted anything or made any leaps in logic. I don't believe in covering things up just because it might make a certain group look bad. I prefer to face things like this head on with no bullshit.

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Many people out there do not have open minds (many of them are white). When they see statistics like this, instead of wondering "Why is this like this? What caused this? How can we change it?" the majority of them think "fuck those lazy niggers." You know this to be true, and if you don't think that's true, you're just kidding yourself.

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I know it, but if they truly believe that, reading this topic won't sway their minds any. Their minds in regards to blacks have already been made up. Moreover, those who are in the service industry who have already made these stereotypes likely won't find anything new about what I presented, but simply confirming their personal observations on the matter.

But you seem to be pointing all this blame on me, when in fact it was the blacks I've recorded who tipped like this. I didn't skew any data nor did I lead people to make false interpretations of my data. I simply presented what I found and blaming me for exposing that simply because it makes black people look bad is pretty meaningless since it's simply running away from what I've found. Should I hide and never talk openly about such matters?

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You are without a doubt not a racist, I won't argue that. However, you certainly do have some feelings of prejudice towards African Americans, seeing as you haven't "compiled any statistics" or made other threads inquiring about certain negative natures of Hispanics, Chinese-Americans, Native Americans, or whites.

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I have to say, most of my "prejudice" against blacks lately have been a result of their tipping habits (I put prejudice in quotation marks because I generally treat all people - black people included - as individuals, unless they start reflecting a great deal of what I'd consider "blackness," which I tend to despise). If there's a reason I appear bitter towards black people who reflect blackness, it's usually through that and perhaps some other random instances I can recall in my past.

Thing is, I did mention that Latinos collectively tip worse than whites and Asians, especially in the working class where they tip like shit. I mainly focused the bulk of this study on blacks because, if you look at all the scatterplots, it's clear that it's the blacks who collectively tip so dramatically different, not the whites, Latinos, Asians, or Indians.

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However, it wouldn't suprise me that blacks didn't tip you much, you're white, and clearly not down with the brothers and sisters. Black people have a way of just telling who's a brother and who's not and you're clearly not a brother.

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Perhaps. I don't make it a point to really interact with customers a great deal; although there was this one black guy who called me a nigger, and in response I called him a honkey.

Thing is, other blacks have noticed this tendency, too. I posted a few links in my OP, and Jake posted one in the 4th page, about blacks complaining about other black people tipping. In fact, I've read responses to those questions by other blacks that blacks who are served by a black server may expect more from that server than they would from a white server simply because they're black, and not tip because they're "brothers." Not sure how true that would be, but the very fact that other blacks have this problem leads me to believe that it's not so much an issue of what race the server is, or how that server really acts.

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I would be interested in seeing the inverse situation take place; a black person delivering and see the differences between whites and blacks tipping, whether the race of the driver would affect the stats at all, or not.

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There's a black guy I knew who delivered pizzas the next city over from mine. I asked him about tips and he said white people give the best tips, although he doesn't deliver pizzas anymore, so I wouldn't be able to collect any stats on his part. Since I don't know of any other black drivers, I wouldn't be able to find you any stats on that right now. As far as minorities (barring Mexicans, there's a few Mexican drivers) and females go, pizza delivery drivers seem to be short on that. Most drivers tend to be Russians, at least in my area.

Post edited at 9:44 pm on Aug. 20, 2008 by Bud2400

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sometimes its because i did not have any extra cash lying around. but usually its because I've gotten disgusted over delivery guy's hygiene.

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To be honest, why would you care about a driver's appearance?  It's hardly as if they effect you, and if you're going to comment on any alleged smell, I honestly doubt you're close enough to them for more than 20 - 30 seconds.

Honestly, people who say they don't tip a driver because their shirt might not be clean are full of shit.  I'm sorry if I have pizza sauce on my shirt from mixing pizza sauce in the kitchen prior to taking your delivery.  Not really sure why that would matter to you, though?

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I still feel guilty about it, but then I haven't enjoyed my meal, so screw it.

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Honestly, as far as any of the Big Three go, it's no surprise you felt sick and didn't enjoy your meals.  Pizza Hut, Domino's, and Papa John's pizzas are low class, greasy shit (especially Pizza Hut).  Sometimes I think to myself while taking an order over the phone, "Would you like to come pick up your heart attack, or would you rather I deliver it?"

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Sorry, but around there may not be the same as around where you live.

My brothers friend failed High-School and, coincidentally, works as a driver at Pizza Hut.

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Oh gosh, a single example.

Most pizza delivery drivers managed to at least pass high school.  A lot of them work while going to college, although not all do.  Most of the lifers who deliver pizzas well into their 40s and 50s do it either because they really like the job or because they're unable to find another, better job.

And while we're giving examples, I'm 20, delivering pizzas about 25 - 30 hours a week, and attending the University of Washington full time.  So much for the pizza delivery driver = lazy ass, high school drop out bullshit?

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it is a fair point that much of this reflects self-segregation.

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Many blacks seem to disregard the fact that non-blacks tip and only pay attention to what their own group (blacks as a whole, of course) has to say about it.

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 my statistics and examples by others on this topic do seem to reflect that sentiment.

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Are your black customers self-segregated? Do they all live in the same area? Even the middle income living with the working class?

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Actually, they do. Some apartment complexes in my area are often known as dead zones for tips because their residents are predominantly black, and given the black working class stiff rate of 75%, it's no surprise that tips are an uncommon thing in places like that.

It always confused me why that was so because these weren't always the cheapest apartment complexes either - one in particular (which also has a great number of scammers, check bouncers, etc., which always gets me too because you usually don't see those kinds of people from new and fairly pricey apartment complexes) has single bedroom apartments of 600 square feet going for $875 a month.

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You know that for sure?

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Read some of the threads in other forums I've linked to. I'm not just basing this off of a hunch, but also from what I've read. Many blacks, to be honest, don't seem to be very pressured into tipping. You agree with this, do you not? If they were more integrated with whites, they would listen to them about tipping, would they not? Some certainly do, and I find those blacks to be the ones tipping a good $3 - $5, but we're looking at the majority here, and the fact that blacks are so different in regards to tipping than any other race shows, again, a lack of integration and a lack of listening to other races, which in turn, means self-segregation.  

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your stats show theres a problem but it dont prove its BECAUSE of self segregation except if they REALLY all live in the same area in your area.

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They don't all live in the same area, but they do tend to live in little clumps sprinkled across the area. I do have to admit, more of the middle class blacks live in predominantly white communities. More of the working class and lower-middle class blacks (which is where the bulk of the bad tips comes from) live in more self-segregated areas and neighborhoods. You'll see a few whites here and there in them, but more often than not, it's a black or other minority of some kind.

Also do bear in mind, Jake, that where you live doesn't necessarily reflect self-segregation.  You can be a minority living in a predominantly white area and still self-segregate yourself, especially if there are plenty of other minorities of your race near by.

Post edited at 9:56 pm on Aug. 20, 2008 by Bud2400

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This is why I tend to get a little miffed when I see blacks complaining about how they're poor because white people "keep them down"

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At this point its hard to tell what part is self fulling prophecy and what part is really total racism. But you cant say it dont exist in the case of blacks. Its true for blacks way more than for latinos, asians, etc... I know it because the way I see stuff around me my blaks friends get treated way worse than all my other friends by ppl (white asian or latino) for one reason or another.

The thing that is strange is that it is prolly in the US than in other countries because of all the talking about it and all the things that happened.

So its good you bring it up because NOT TIPPING would prolly give more bad raps to blacks without being aware of it. And they sure dont need that.

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I see it as completely redirecting the responsibility from themselves to others

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  Should I hide and never talk openly about such matters?

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If there's a reason I appear bitter towards black people, it's usually through that and perhaps some other random instances I can recall in my past.

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Thing is, I did mention that Latinos collectively tip worse than whites and Asians, especially in the working class where they tip like shit.

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Like I said ppl act the way the culture they raised with and the culture around them tells them.

I live in a bad area but its NOT by choice. Its NOT slef- segragation even if its true that 70% of the ppl around me are latino. The reason we live there is because we dont have the MONEY to live elsewhere. and the area is full of crack heads and pimps and hoes.

when you live around that then you get the "fuck you" attitude brained into you from early on. so you stiff anybody you can and cheat and steal as much as you can.

I'd be like that myself if i didn't have a mentor that helped me out and taught me things since I was 13.

So its CULTURE not RACE as I said.

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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You gotta admit though thats some of it (NOT ALL obv) has truth on it. I mean there IS some institutional and social racism going on. I dont say that to excuse what is going on but you cant deny it exist either.

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I agree that it exists on some level, but I believe it's vastly overexaggurated.  I also believe that a lot of the "racism" against blacks is more of a result of resent towards "blackness," which isn't racist in and of itself since it's rejection and disapproval of certain values as opposed to hating one's color of skin.  Those who reflect blackness during a job interview will, most certainly, face problems getting that job and advancing in the company hierarchy if they do get the job.

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The thing that is strange is that it is prolly in the US than in other countries because of all the talking about it and all the things that happened.

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Actually, European countries are having this same exact problem with their Muslim minorities, which mostly come from Turkey, but also a great deal come from North Africa for France, and South Asia for the UK.  There are quite a few articles in European newspapers on how some Muslim immigrants lock them and their children away from the rest of society in an attempt to preserve their own culture and shield them from the evils of European society, or how Muslim immigrants are more prone to "terrorism," etc.  Anywhere where there's a significant number of minorities who identify themselves with something, there are bound to be ethnic / religious tensions.  It's occurred all throughout history since the beginning of time - racial tensions just seems to be more of a recent development in our schema of the world and its people.

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So its good you bring it up because NOT TIPPING would prolly give more bad raps to blacks without being aware of it. And they sure dont need that.

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Question is, do they care?  Are they going to listen to a whitey like me tell them that they should tip and that by not doing so, they're reflecting very poorly on their entire racial group?

Personally, from the responses I've gotten and observed for other people from black people who have discussed this topic is that they'll cast the person who says that blacks don't tip off as racist.  This is why I held off this topic until I got my results - so that if you try calling me racist, it'll be a moot point in the face of these statistics.  If they don't jump to racism, they'll usually defend those that don't tip by saying tipping is a stupid system - nevermind what everyone else does in society, they're just "white folks or boojie ass niggas."

The fact that blacks don't listen to the rest of society about this does seem to convey a sense of isolation from that society and hence, self-segregation, does it not?

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Hey at least you honest.

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But of course, you also must understand that I don't treat all blacks with the same kind of contempt as I would to the blacks that have wronged me (this really goes with everybody of all races).  Treat others as individuals.  If they reflect what I depise of blackness, I will not treat them in a very favorable way.  Prejudice?  I don't really think so, so much as it's a rejection and disapproval of certain ideals, which I find blacks more than anyone else associates with their own racial group.

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I live in a bad area but its NOT by choice. Its NOT slef- segragation even if its true that 70% of the ppl around me are latino.

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I never said that people who do live in the working class always self-segregate themselves.  The people around where you live don't necessarily reflect your integration with society, as you can still segregate yourself from a predominantly white, or black, or Latino, or whatever community.  It's really more of a state of mind than it's physical, to be quite honest.

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you usually don't see those kinds of people from new and fairly pricey apartment complexes) has single bedroom apartments of 600 square feet going for $875 a month.

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 Many blacks, to be honest, don't seem to be very pressured into tipping.

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Like I know plenty of places too that have high concentration asian or high conectration latino but its not like we give each other the word on what to tip or not to tip. I doubt anybody even talks about it really.

its true though that if you see a friend tip a lot then you feel shamed into doing it. but its not a cospiracy or something that we give the word about.

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the fact that blacks are so different in regards to tipping than any other race shows, again, a lack of integration and a lack of listening to other races, which in turn, means self-segregation.

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The way I learn what to do is thanks to

1. my mom (but sometimes I tell her stuff thats done/not done in the US even though shes been here 20 years)
2. my mentor
3. some of my freinds but i found out quick I had to watch about that too
4. some good teacher i had in 7th grade who cared about me.  

without them i'd just do what everyone else does and i'd been in a gang a long time ago and maybe dead by now.

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More of the working class and lower-middle class blacks (which is where the bulk of the bad tips comes from) live in more self-segregated areas and neighborhoods.  

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still self-segregate yourself, especially if there are plenty of other minorities of your race near by.

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Things like tipping and stuff like that is not really easy to find out that it goes back to segregaion self or not. its part education, part habit, part those around you, part culture, part other things .

Its not like everything comes from segregation self or not.

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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In california that can be "low" rent. I know place that go for $1500 for 600 sqft easy and thats just middle class area.

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Considering that we're talking about the Seattle area and not the Bay Area, that's a moot point.

Fact is, most 600 sq. ft. single bedroom apartments in my area go for $750 on the low end, $1000 on the high end.  $875 is quite a bit and indicates that they had some choice in which apartment complex they could choose.  Moreover, the cheapest apartments up north or west of my area go for around $600 a month, so again, Jake, the fact that they can afford $875 a month indicates they had a little choice in where they could live.

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the fact they NOT pressure into tipping dont mean its because they self-segregated. I mean it could be a result of it but its not like one follow into the other.

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What exactly are you saying here?  It could be the result of it but can't be because of it?

My argument here is that self-segregation is a piece of it.  That self-segregation from other races increases isolation from the rest of society, and as a result, they won't adopt the customs like tipping on the scale that the rest of society does.  Obviously it's not the whole thing, but I do believe that it's a good part of it, and frankly, one of the easier ones to fix.

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Like I know plenty of places too that have high concentration asian or high conectration latino but its not like we give each other the word on what to tip or not to tip. I doubt anybody even talks about it really.

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Tipping isn't something you really talk about, but something you observe.  If you're black and don't observe your other black buddies tipping, you won't feel pressured to tip.  Wait, does this black guy observe his white buddies tipping?  Where are his white buddies?  

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why would they LISTEN to other races? you think other races even bother telling blacks what or what not to tip. NO RACE ever told me what to tip. its ppl around me maybe and usually in my case thats not a good thing to follow what they do.

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By other races, I basically mean everybody else in society.  It's pretty common sense among all people that restaurant servers are tipped, yet you hear restaurant servers complaining about how little blacks tip.  I'm sure if an individual black person doesn't tip, they figure that somebody else will tip, and if they have any idea about how other blacks tips through the attitudes toward tipping they've observed through their group of friends, you'd assume that they mainly see whites and other races as the ones who are tipping these people.

Here I'm saying that the fact that a profession is tipped at all should influence others to tip that profession based on that alone.  However, many blacks don't because - notice the attitudes many convey through some of the threads I linked to - it's a "white" thing - ie. it's not black!  That attittude is self-segregation at its finest.

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without them i'd just do what everyone else does and i'd been in a gang a long time ago and maybe dead by now.

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You basically covered it.  Yet I wonder, how many non-black mentors do many blacks have?  How many non-black role models do many blacks look up to?  Indeed, black history in the United States is rich, though I've never gotten the impression that blacks, in general, look up to other whites a great deal, whereas you'll notice all the praise those like Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks get from whites (and well deserved , too, I might add, but again, one-sided - in order to be respected, respect must be returned).

And remember, if tipping is learned through (black) parents and (black) friends, and blacks generally don't tip whereas other races do, then how come many blacks are not learning to tip when their friend of different races do tip if they aren't so self-segregated like you say?

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you think its SELF segregated because you KNOW they chose to live where they lived? most ppl in working class area dont CHOOSE where they live.

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Actually, the working class is limited in where they can live, but they do have a choice among the apartment complexe they do live in.

And do I need to remind you that self-segregation is more of a state of mind than it is about where you live?  

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that might be true. but NOT EVERYBODY SELF segregate. its a stretch to say they do for sure ithout knowing what they really about.

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Nah, not every black person self-segregates themselves.  That'd certainly be a stretch since even a single example could contradict that claim, of which there are many examples.

Rather, I'm arguing that it's a good portion and that the reason blacks don't tip so great is because they aren't observing and learning from how other races tip, which, if you think about it, is because of the lack of interaction with them!  

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Things like tipping and stuff like that is not really easy to find out that it goes back to segregaion self or not. its part education, part habit, part those around you, part culture, part other things .  

Its not like everything comes from segregation self or not.

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Of course not, although society at large endorses tipping in general, thus you'd think if blacks didn't form their own subculture that doesn't endorse practices such as tipping, or that they don't learn or feel pressured into tipping via observations and simple discussion with other races, that there's some isolation among the black community, and that much of this isolation appears to be chosen today as opposed to being forced on them as it was in the past.  The black community exists as it does today because of instituted discrimination, and indeed, many blacks are wishing to preserve their own identities as black people via self-segregation and concepts like multiculturalism.

Again, it's a piece of the problem, but not the whole problem.  But I don't think you can get anywhere unless you address this piece first.

But i will venture a guess that on the occasions we go out to eat, we usually don't have much money to lavish on a waiter.

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My life is going pretty sweet right now.

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I'm sorry, but I couldn't read all that. I'm too lazy for more than 3 pages.

But i will venture a guess that on the occasions we go out to eat, we usually don't have much money to lavish on a waiter.

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So you think it's all right to cheat the waiter out of paying for the cost for their labor?

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Quote: from nigeltheoutlaw at 12:39 am on Aug. 21, 2008

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I'm sorry, but I couldn't read all that. I'm too lazy for more than 3 pages.  

 But i will venture a guess that on the occasions we go out to eat, we usually don't have much money to lavish on a waiter.

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So you think it's all right to cheat the waiter out of paying for the cost for their labor?

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Of course not, but there are multiple other factors. The waiter could not have been effective, for one, not to mention that their race may influence many a waiter to not be as attentive or helpful to them.

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My life is going pretty sweet right now.

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I also believe that a lot of the "racism" against blacks is more of a result of resent towards "blackness,"

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Those who reflect blackness during a job interview will, most certainly, face problems getting that job and advancing in the company hierarchy if they do get the job.

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I mean how the fuck do you "reflect blackness" in an interview?

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There are quite a few articles in European newspapers on how some Muslim immigrants lock them and their children away from the rest of society in an attempt to preserve their own culture and shield them from the evils of European society

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Question is, do they care? Are they going to listen to a whitey like me tell them that they should tip and that by not doing so, they're reflecting very poorly on their entire racial group?

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1. if they from low in the income/social scale ppl OF ANY RACE dont usually listen to NOBODY. their whole attidue is "fuck you" "fuck the world" "fuck the sytem" etc...

2. if enough blacks get hired as pizza delivery guys they will wake up to the problem. Like ALL ppl its only when you see stuff from the other end that you realize theres a problem. so if its true of white middle class having to realize what its like to be poor and black it goes the other way too.

3. maybe instad of doing it by race one way is to educate EVERYBODY on pizza delivery tipping and showing the reaction and the effects in a TV show or a news program THEN yeah ppl will wake up to it.

And that program should have real life ppl of all races and then ppl will see it and then they'll wake up to the fact.

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they'll cast the person who says that blacks don't tip off as racist.

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all day long the same shit it becomes like a self fulling prophecy and it dont solve shit. Its like whites get sick of being blamesd all the time for slavery. well blacks get sick of being blamed for all the evils in the world. latinos get sick of being blamed for illegal immigration. asians get sick of being taken as pushovers with no dick. stuff  like that. so ppl get defensive.

but once you get past that and if more blacks was hired as delivery guys then they'd educate other blacks, etc...

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This is why I held off this topic until I got my results - so that if you try calling me racist, it'll be a moot point in the face of these statistics.

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1. you collected the data youself
2. you worked on it real hard
3. you asked a question rather than make it sound like you found a conclusion

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The fact that blacks don't listen to the rest of society

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If they reflect what I depise of blackness, I will not treat them in a very favorable way.

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It's really more of a state of mind than it's physical, to be quite honest.

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Like theres this asian guy living in my complex and he always look at ppl with hate and leaves cigbutts all over the place and his whole front door is pure trash. is it because thats what they do in asia or is it because he's just a trash himself? or i see white ppl beat their wives and get stoned and insult my mom for no reason. is it because thats what they do in white america or is it because they just trash?

or is it just that all those ppl just behave like all the trash around them and they dont know better? because TRASHNESS is just a state of mind and it goes ACROSS ALL race.

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP