Why Do Black People Not Tip? -- LiveWire Teen Forums

Quote: from jakelong at 12:52 am on Aug. 21, 2008

A lot of racism comes from way long even before "blackness". The ones who are racist just use that as excuse to justify their hate. Some ppl might get sick of it but it takes more than that to get racist against a whole group

Oh, I don't know. Remember my thread on the nature of racism? The ideals and values of blackness are exposed to all in society, and generally it does not reflect very well on black people. Some, unfortunately through the lack of interaction with black people, form stereotypes against them, which aren't always true. Hence these stereotypes lead to unwarranted and misplaced prejudice. I doubt it has a great deal with hatred against the color of black peoples' skin - racism goes much deeper than that, as you should know.

what you mean exactly by that? You mean if they wear afro hair or look too obviously black or if they show up with baggy pants and listen to hiphop through the interview? Or they wear a malcolm X t-shirt and speak about black power through the whole interview?

Basically the whole "thug" mentality, pimp'n'hoes attitude, general misogyny, materialism, unnecessary confrontation and that in your face attitude, white man oppresses the poor black man, the necessity for black separation from whites, blacks can do no wrong, etc. This is what I see as "blackness" and it's primarily reflected by a minority of blacks who want to assert their own identity as black people. It's more reflected through how they act than anything else, although people revving their cars up in the parking lots of their apartment complexes at midnight on a weeknight to show off their rims doesn't look very good either.

Call me prejudiced and whatnot for it, but I just despise that sort of thing, and not because they're black but because I think it's shallow / rude / ignorant. Certainly not all black people share that attitude, and it seems the older the black person gets, the less they care about it, but some of the attitudes tend to linger from what I've observed.

I mean how the fuck do you "reflect blackness" in an interview?

Having interviewed people in the past, whenever a black kid complained about racism against them by whites when other factors could have been involved, I was going "???" in my head. I understand the racial discrimination against blacks throughout society and how subconscious racism still exists to a certain extent today, but when I see blacks using white people oppressing them as a scapegoat for the entire reason why they're poor or pulling the race card when something on the surface might seem racist, but deep down actually is not, I get a very negative image of that person, just as I would to anybody who acts ignorant or blames others for all their problems.

Some of that is because of religion too I bet. And they said the same stuff about jews 60 years before that.

Well, Jews were a little different because Jews were blamed for all the ills of society and why the Germans lost WWI - it's not so with the Muslims in Europe today. Moreover, Muslims in Europe today, as well as Jews in the past and today, have always been treated more like a racial group than a religious group. Since they build their own community and identify themselves with it, it works rather similarly to races, but at least the members of it actually have something deeper than just shallow social constructs (Islam or Judaism) in common.

1. if they from low in the income/social scale ppl OF ANY RACE dont usually listen to NOBODY. their whole attidue is "fuck you" "fuck the world" "fuck the sytem" etc...

Quite true, though it depends on the person and their background. A lot of working class individuals are simply young adults from middle class families who are working their way up, too.

2. if enough blacks get hired as pizza delivery guys they will wake up to the problem. Like ALL ppl its only when you see stuff from the other end that you realize theres a problem. so if its true of white middle class having to realize what its like to be poor and black it goes the other way too.

Perhaps. You could be right, however, for some reason blacks just don't apply for pizza delivery positions. The only blacks we've had at my store are just in-store employees, and those guys don't get tipped.

3. maybe instad of doing it by race one way is to educate EVERYBODY on pizza delivery tipping and showing the reaction and the effects in a TV show or a news program THEN yeah ppl will wake up to it.

Perhaps, although the primary group one would need to target is blacks. Professor Lynn commented on this and he gave suggestions on targeting blacks with these tipping ads in a subtle way so as to not get screwed over by a racial lawsuit. He generally mentioned advertising in predominantly black communities, black organizations, etc.

And that program should have real life ppl of all races and then ppl will see it and then they'll wake up to the fact.

It could, but again, like with Lynn, I'm skeptical of how much it would actually work.

its kind of automatic reaction sometimes. its because everytime ppl talk about black its alwys 90% of it negative. blacks odo more cimes, blacks abandon their kids blacks do this blacks do that.

Which isn't racist in and of itself, and trying to call people who quote this stuff as racist is counterproductive to helping blacks. If blacks really want to combat their problems, they need to face it openly and head on. They can't expect to just sweep this shit under the rug and pretend it does not exist, and they cannot expect other people to either.

all day long the same shit it becomes like a self fulling prophecy and it dont solve shit. Its like whites get sick of being blamesd all the time for slavery. well blacks get sick of being blamed for all the evils in the world. latinos get sick of being blamed for illegal immigration. asians get sick of being taken as pushovers with no dick. stuff like that. so ppl get defensive.

Yeah, I understand that. This is why I make special notes in my little study to mention that the definition of a general tendency requires that there are deviations from that tendency - because if everyone were the same, it would not be a tendency, but it would just be that - said group is does this, not said group has a tendency to do this.
People really need to keep this in mind.

Moreover, call me a little idealistic, but I have a tendency to think that people should avoid associating themselves with labels like "white people," "black people," etc. and associate themselves with their individuality only. Unfortunately that doesn't really work out in the real world, and sometimes I forget that.

stats dont tell the whole story either but what gives weight to what you say is that
1. you collected the data youself
2. you worked on it real hard
3. you asked a question rather than make it sound like you found a conclusion

Thanks. They don't say anything specifically other than that black people have a tendency to tip far worse than all the other races, but you have to admit that they do reflect some things about black people and the rest of society, which is exactly what we're discussing. It's simply interpretations of the stats and what they say in the overall picture, which is what scholars and professors do every single freaking day.

I dont get the sense they DONT LISTEN. its funny how you think stuff is intentional. its not always.

I don't really think it's all that intentional either. I think it's just an attitude and schema of society they learn at a young age and hold onto.

I bet few ppl even spend a minute even thinking about it. its not like everybody is busy looking at that issue. if you not into you dont think about it.

I doubt people think about the tip longer than a minute at most. But the tip does come across their minds nonetheless. The question is whether they think about how much they should tip or if they just say "eh fuck tipping," which if they inconsiderately choose the latter, they probably spend no more than 10 seconds thinking about it. As of right now, we don't know the exact reasons why they don't tip, and that question itself is a complicated one.

so if you see a black guy with bling bling and wears dark glasses in the middle of the night and listtening to hiphop then you act prejudice even before they give the tip or not? if thats true then maybe that can explain a few things too.

Not necessarily. What they wear doesn't necessarily reflect the attitude of blackness. Some of these guys can be pretty cool and funny actually. I generally don't mind the guys who are easy going, just want to have a good time, and poke fun at stuff. It's really just the attitude I receive from them (which I described above), the way they talk to me (whether I get the sense that they're shunning me or not - a "diss"), and just simply their manners (people who stare at me and not talk to me when I talk to them, or take 5 minutes to find their money when they had 45 minutes to get it together, gives me a very bad vibe). I usually can't make these judgment calls until after the pizza is delivered and I evaluate it all, and even then, my impression is only based on a half a minute's interaction with them.

Thats the thing. how do you SEE the state of mind without KNOWING the person? Because honest i see good/lousy behavior but I cant tell if it comes from inside or not unless I really talk to the person a while and know them and live around them.

I'm not saying that I see it from my customers, but that I see it from the responses other blacks have made to the topic of "why blacks do not tip" in other forums. I consider these things and come to my own conclusions. Yes, it's based on the words of perhaps 10 - 20 people, but it certainly seems to fit. While I argue for it, I don't necessarily believe that it's the only thing or that it's necessarily even right, but that I have a very big feeling that it's a factor of the whole issue.

Like theres this asian guy living in my complex and he always look at ppl with hate and leaves cigbutts all over the place and his whole front door is pure trash. is it because thats what they do in asia or is it because he's just a trash himself? or i see white ppl beat their wives and get stoned and insult my mom for no reason. is it because thats what they do in white america or is it because they just trash?

Thing is, Jake, these types of things occur among a very small few of whites, Asians, etc. As far as self-segregation for blacks go, I have had multiple encounters with blacsk where I felt the sense - at my one high school I went to, I couldn't even walk through the "black hall" without getting harrassed and at one time, even threatened for my money simply because I was white. This does not give me a very good sense of integration among many blacks. I've met quite a few who are and they're nothing like a lot of these people, and they seem to be widespread as I see people like that in quite a few places, both on and off my job (and they're not usually my customers when on the job, but groups of blacks who have taken over the stairway and I gotta really push my way to get through, or the black kids I saw this one time throwing rocks at this white kid).

or is it just that all those ppl just behave like all the trash around them and they dont know better? because TRASHNESS is just a state of mind and it goes ACROSS ALL race.

Of course it applies to all races. I'm not saying that this is a black only phenomenon, but I question why so many blacks I've encountered do reflect a lot of this crap, compared to all the Latinos, Asians, whites, and Indians I've encountered.

Post edited at 1:44 am on Aug. 21, 2008 by Bud2400

Quote: from jakelong at 11:40 pm on Aug. 21, 2008

but how do you SEE that in an interview?

I told you about that one kid who said something like "you white people are why us black folk are poor" or something like that. As you mentioned later in your post, you're right - that's more telling of idiocy than anything else, hence why I pretty much ended the interview after that, and pretty much gave the "don't call us, we'll call you" spiel.

I would also mention that wearing things like baggy pants, bandanas, etc. to an interview is also expressing it. While what you wear doesn't necessarily show who's representing "blackness" or not, wearing that kinda stuff to an interview where you should wear something at least semi-professional says to me, and any other interviewer, that this individual is more interested in asserting his or her own identity (which, in the case of blackness, would be asserting their identity as a black person) as opposed to conforming to the identity of an employee of the company. This occurred a little more frequently than that one kid, which was just lulz.

targetting a race dont work. ppl get defensive and upset and then close their ears.

Not if you do it subtly enough that it the advertisement wouldn't seem race specific.

you know that. you get sick of having white ppl being blamed for slavery or racism or segregation all the time.

Indeed, which is why I often bring up the things blacks are responsible and blamed for, too. While I don't believe sweeping these things under the rug is how these problems should be handled, I'm pretty adamant about getting black people to recognize that they have control over their own situation - it's hardly as if white people are trying to keep them there, which is one of the prevalent attitudes I get from proponents of blackness. There are a few, but they're hardly representative of all white people. Subconscious racism against blacks may be more widespread, but I'd attribute that to misplaced stereotypes, which blacks themselves reflect through blackness. If the black community were to, as a whole, reject such things more openly and endorse individual success and entrepreneulship (and as a result, sever the perceived unity among blacks), then you'll notice a change in attitudes.

However, this will never happen as it would be suicide for the black community to ever do such. The black community requires unity above all else, thus it's not going to endorse anything which may threaten that unity.

Its better to just educate everybody and show real life exampls with blacks and whites and asians and show what happens when ppl tip bad and then ppl will wake up to it. Something like a "60 minute" or a "CNN special" thing.

It would have to be cleverly put together so as to not appear racist on the surface, which I believe anything that reflects my study will appear to be. Any criticism of black people is often met with accusations of racism, or if not that, then at least searches for the motive of the person who conducted the study as opposed to actually doing anything about the issue. You'll notice that in this very thread.

That I agree. to me though the best way it make sure more blacks become delivery guys. when you in the shoes then you feel the corns.

Thing about your suggestion is that it would seem to scream for affirmative action policies among pizza delivery drivers, which I can assure you no one will like. We do pass out ads on our pizza boxes about hiring drivers from time to time, but still don't notice an increase of the number of black applicants.

I'd agree that getting more black people into professions that tip would help some of the problem, however, I don't believe it should be encouraged or forced, but rather, chosen by them. You can advertise it to them, though I'm unsure of just how far it'll go.

you know I get that a lot from white ppl. so maybe I should call that "whiteness"

Well, I defined it extremely broadly there, so it should be no surprise that you could. My bad. I did get a little more specific as to what it contains earlier in my post.

When we think of blackness, you must remember that blackness is essentially what advocates of a consolidated black race will push. Whatever they define as "black," and not "white," is thus a reflection of blackness.

So in a sense, it could be what you wear and whatnot. But I don't necessarily see that as a negative attribute of blackness, nor do I see some of the attitudes of it as negative either.

There are, however, many things in it which disgusts me, and I think the main thing is the emphasis on the unity of blacks. I hate seeing blacks insult other blacks because they're acting "white," or being an "oreo," as if there's some proper way a black person should act (and it is through this that the idea of whites and blacks being inherently different, as well as self-segregation itself, is made). I also incredibly dislike its using whites as a scapegoat as opposed to shifting some of the responsibility onto itself - it can certainly blame whites for what wrongs white society has done to them, but it seems to take it a tad too far, especially in an age where many whites actually sympathize with the situation blacks are in today and despise racism as much as they do. Moreover, I also hate the double standards it'll use by endorsing black nationalism and black power, but calling white nationalism and white power racist, as well as cries of racism against whites when a black could say the same exact things against whites and not be considered racist. These are the attitudes displayed through blackness that I abhor, and not every proponent of blackness may necessarily have to believe or go by it all, such things seems far more prevalent among blacks than anyone else.

Blackness is an extremely abstract and broad concept, and it's something I doubt most blacks themselves could properly define it. I myself have immense trouble defining it, not because it doesn't exist, but because it's kind of a complicated concept as it's very inconsistent - what one defines as white and black varies, among both whites and blacks alike. I simply dislike ignorance and there are some ideas among the black community which relies on ignorance using very emotional arguments. Again, it really depends on the individual, but such "unity" of these ideals and ideas aren't seen in all other races, and people do speak on this matter quite often. If you ever notice any "what's the difference between a black person and a nigger" thread, you'll notice that whatever is listed as a "nigger" trait is a negative attribute of blackness.

well that abit difffernt . ppl who order pizza get stupid and distracted. we sometimes order pizza then get buzy with homework or watching tv and then we hear knocking at the door and go "hey whos that?" and then scarmble for money.

Eh, I can understand taking a minute maybe, but when I have to wait outside in the rain for 5 minutes when I have other deliveries running late, I get rather annoyed. Granted, though, this happens among people of all different colors, though I find the more irresponsible customers do this.

But one thing I do notice among blacks more than anyone else is that whenever I knock on their door, I always get a "WHO IS IT?" from them more than any other race, which always make me think "WTF, who do you think it is??" During those times, I'm tempted to yell "the police!" just to fuck with them. Not that this is really anything positive or negative, but it's just an odd observation of mine.

those guys you talk about are basically like gangs and bullies. its the mob/thug thing.

Indeed. These were the idiots who'd jump others for wearing the wrong colors, yet they exhibited the negative attributes of blackness perfectly. You don't have to be an upstanding citizen to assert your identity as a black person, and indeed, many who do aren't. That's the problem. As blacks emphasize unity far more than any other race, you'll notice that when a white person does something stupid, he's just an idiot, whereas when a black person does it, he's being black. If the black community really wanted to be reflected in a more positive light, they'd "disown" these guys and endorse attributes which are more positive and lean towards individual success, and indeed many individuals do try, but as a collective whole, it doesn't seem to be very big or successful. Until the black community can "disown" part of the people they define as their own race (thereby threatening the cohesion of the black community itself, which is why it, as a whole, seems reluctant to do), blacks will remain looking bad thanks to individuals like that.

those scumbags dont have to be real hoods, they jst wannabee hoods and thats even worse. they act like that to look tough and bad and impress others and like they "own" the place and make the rules and scare ppl down.

I wouldn't say they act like they own it or try to look tough - they honestly have mugged others and threatened me with some knives they brought to my school before. These are the guys that would get into gunfights in some apartments about a mile and a half away from where I used to live and jumped others and beat them into comas for wearing blue (they considered themselves to be "bloods"). I'd really call them idiots more than anything else.

its not because they segregate that they get like that, its the other way around. its because deep down they total chickens with no dicks so they have to gang up together to feel strong and bully others. they do it by race because its easiest and because the school ppl are too fucking stupid or dickheaded to tell whats going on and just punish those who fight back.

I disagree. I'd say self-segregation is a big part of it. If they grouped together in one single race because it's "easier," then you'd see some whites, Mexicans, and Asians among them every so often.

Moreover, my school was pretty out of touch with the students. You usually had two types of teachers / staff - the kind who really couldn't care less, or the kind who'd be smoking with you at the skatepark by my school for lunch. I'm glad I got out of there after the 9th grade. That place was a real shithole.

its not just blacks, its latinos and others.

Yes, I know there are Latinos out there like this, and they deserve words no less harsh. Thing is, the cohesion among Latinos doesn't seem to be as strict as the cohesion among blacks. As a Latino, you could have many friends of other races, talk like a white person, share the same values as whites, and live your life like a white person and still be considered a Latino. Notice how there's no "oreo" equivalent for Latinos - at least no popular equivalent. The ones who are scumbags may disrespect them all the same, but again, you don't notice the same cohesion (as in, calling every other Latino your "brother," implying that they're more similar to you than those of other races), and thus there's more room for individuality among Latinos.

I was the new kid in my area when I showed up. I was just 10. it didn't take 2 months before the scum had me pin down as the fall guy because i didn't belong to no group being mixed and a n00b. it was latinos and blacks. they went after me and they threw me against a wall and gave me a concussion. i was passed out for 30 minutes. that was on the school grounds too but nobody "knew" what happened and the school fucks said to my mom i just "fell".

I'm sorry to hear that. You do realize, though, that hatred of mixed individuals is a sign of self-segregation, do you not? Individually you can always circumvent that problem of suspicion or whatever through interacting on a one-by-one basis with others, and slowly integrating into whatever group they have established, and once in that group, you're one of "them," and thus protected for the most part from such things.

When you're alone, you're facing against other groups by yourself, and people in groups tend to enforce racial self-segregation more strictly (which is part of the whole "mob mentaliy"), and instead of just dismissing you as they would when you're in the protection of another group, they'll quite literally hurt you if they feel they must (or even if for the hell of it in some cases).

then after that the gangs tried to recruit me and said "homie you need protection". i cut you on the detail. well anyway thats what its about. its ppl who scared of being alone and sticking out and doing the right thing for themselves.

Indeed. Seems at the same time, others sympathized with you, which isn't all that surprising to be quite honest.

I understand your point that people seek to be a part of groups for protection and to appear stronger - I've noted this myself for quite some time. However, these same groups will enforce racial self-segregation, as what you saw against you and what I've seen. If it were merely easier for them to be like this, you'll notice non-blacks and non-Latinos slip through the cracks and become a part of a few of these groups, too, but that's almost never the case. Simply put, a group of blacks will get together, and what's the first thing they'll notice? That they're black. Thus they'll define themselves as black, identify with other blacks more easily than with non-blacks, and the definition will become so strong that non-blacks simply cannot join them and in many cases if they try, they'll be harrassed out of it. Though that doesn't always happens - I've known some whites who have managed to break into these groups, usually through some difficulty. It's not as clear cut as it sounds, but it's certainly there to a good extent.

The REAL black ppl the ones that are cool and dont do that, they NEVER have to be ashamed to be black or to have their own culture though.

Not sure I'd identify anyone as a "real" person of whatever race they belong to. I'd say the most admirable and fun blacks to be around are like this, though.

Becasue what you talk about thats not what black culture is really about.

Yet they don't collectively disown them either. They don't separate themselves from those types and say that they're just idiots, blacks are not like that. At least not on a wide enough scale.

Its like the real muslims are not the terrorists putting bombs and killing kids.

Yet again, you'll never notice moderate Muslims disowning these terrorists either. Moderate Muslims actually seem to recognize and sympathize with what the terrorists are doing against the West for the very fact that many of them are pissed off against the West as well. This doesn't make them terrorists however (like how this doesn't make the blacks who don't "disown" other blacks thugs), but it does reflect on Muslims in a bad way.

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