People tend to throw out the whole "Permanent solution to a temporary problem" line a lot, but I feel like this is done without even considering what they even mean by that.

I think it is very possible that some people are in situations where the porblem is NOT temporary and there is no hope that it ever will be.  An alcoholic might get over a drinking problem but the urge to use again is always going to be there.  Someone who survives a rape might heal from the physical damage but the memory is never going to go away.  

Is it realistic for us to actually tell anyone that their problem is temporary??  

Because I have a hard time buying into the idea that human memory and emotion is so easily manipulated that we can expect people to get over certain things.  I just don't think it's possible.  Call me a pessimist, but that's not how the world works.

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Around and around and around we spin,
With feet of lead and wings of tin

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1-800-784-2433 call this..please......dont do anyhting until you call. Im begging you.

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...

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I am not a douche.

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1-800-784-2433 call this..please......dont do anyhting until you call. Im begging you.

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Im glad you care that much that you didnt even read it.

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miimiis loves ampamps~ NYA :3

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1-800-784-2433 call this..please......dont do anyhting until you call. Im begging you.

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Thanks but learn to read next time.

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Around and around and around we spin,
With feet of lead and wings of tin

Emotions can't be gotten rid of, and the things of the past are hard to control.

The thing is, I don't think that suicide is the only way to deal with a problem.  While you can't get RID of something, you can find ways to come to terms with it.  I just think it's a matter of searching for your reason to keep living.

Ultimately, suicide is the person's choice.  But even in the toughest situations, with the strongest feelings of guilt, or the most painful memories, I think that if you can keep going and just have the hope for finding something that will allow you to at least accept it and move on... you may be able to get through.

It's hard to say, when it comes to the human mind, there's nothign that you can say or do that will instantly work.  You can over and over again tell someone that they were NOT the cause of a friend's suicide, or that they shouldn't blame themselves, but that doesn't mean they will feel any different.  However, if they keep going, may they be able to find something that helps them?  Quite possibly.

I suppose I see it this way.

All throughout EVERYONE'S lives, it's just a constant search for happiness.  Once we have one thing, we want another... when something bad happens, it erases all the previous good and we get stuck with the memory of only the bad.  Life is just a matter of continuing to work forward and finding the things in life that DO make you happy.  Can someone that suffers from the memory of the past be happy?  I think that with some time, they may really be able to do that.  It's whether or not they give themselves the time, or have the hope that maybe things won't be so bad if they try for it.

But like I said before, it's ultimately the person's call.  Will they ever be happy?  That's the thing... you can't know until you try.  And personally?  I think it's worth the effort of trying, even if it's painful along the way... because one day where I have cause to smile makes a lot of that pain worth it...

People are mentally scarred in different ways - what may seem like something you as an individual can get past, may not be something someone else can. If you're 'mentally scarred by things that happened in your life, (EVEN IF THEY DONT HAPPEN TO YOU PERSONALLY) as said, whilst it can become physically distant, the mental stuff sticks... for good.

I used to cut myself. 3 years of it. Though i find other ways of dealing with it, 3 years, 2 years on i STILL let it wind me to the point i want to die...because these events are STILL in my head. They'll never go and its that that people dont see.

The reasons people see for commiting suicide are for attention. Their actions are visable on the outside. But very rarely does anyone stop to think exactly why they want to die because they're too ignorant to see past the 'attention' stereotypical point of view.

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Do you know what's worth fighting for
when its not worth dying for?

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1-800-784-2433 call this..please......dont do anyhting until you call. Im begging you.

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You skimmed, not read.
Ignorant narrowminded asshole.

TRY this

[ http://www.suicide.com/ ]

eventually by reading thoroughly
[so I obvviously frown upon "SaintKris" attemping]
You come across a man articel connected to the rest with the index title of
"Should suicide be justified?"

I truly believe it can be.
I know from living through it and
things some people can only
in-vision, not experience.

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No, I do think that certain things will last forever. My sister even told me when I moved in with her, that certain things between my mother and father (like arguments and the like) will never leave me. Some of the effects and the fear will probably always stay.

Emotions can't be gotten rid of, and the things of the past are hard to control.

The thing is, I don't think that suicide is the only way to deal with a problem. While you can't get RID of something, you can find ways to come to terms with it. I just think it's a matter of searching for your reason to keep living.

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I'm not saying by any means that suicide is the only way to solve a problem, nor am I saying that it is the only solution in certain situations.  What I am suggesting here is that maybe sometimes, for some people...it really is the only way out.

Yes, there are plenty of ways to deal with a problem but sometimes people just plain run out of ways that work.  And then what?  When things stop getting better, and no one can tell you why; it becomes hard to find a reason to keep living.  And honestly, I find it very difficult to say in that situation that suicide isn't justified.  

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Ultimately, suicide is the person's choice. But even in the toughest situations, with the strongest feelings of guilt, or the most painful memories, I think that if you can keep going and just have the hope for finding something that will allow you to at least accept it and move on... you may be able to get through.

It's hard to say, when it comes to the human mind, there's nothign that you can say or do that will instantly work. You can over and over again tell someone that they were NOT the cause of a friend's suicide, or that they shouldn't blame themselves, but that doesn't mean they will feel any different. However, if they keep going, may they be able to find something that helps them? Quite possibly.

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Yes, quite possibly that will (and does) happen.  And that should always be the ultimate goal-to help one another through things.  Like I said, I am not advocating an end to sucide prevention just because it can sometimes be justified.

What I am arguing here is that perhaps only an individual can know best that they have reached the end of the line, and that something will never leave their memory, or that they will never overcome somehting.  This is usually the result of a long hard fight with what they are dealing with.  Suicide is almost always a last resort.  

At the time this conclusion is reached, perhaps it is better of us to accept that giving them the peace of ending it is the best thing to do.

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I suppose I see it this way.

All throughout EVERYONE'S lives, it's just a constant search for happiness. Once we have one thing, we want another... when something bad happens, it erases all the previous good and we get stuck with the memory of only the bad. Life is just a matter of continuing to work forward and finding the things in life that DO make you happy. Can someone that suffers from the memory of the past be happy? I think that with some time, they may really be able to do that. It's whether or not they give themselves the time, or have the hope that maybe things won't be so bad if they try for it.

But like I said before, it's ultimately the person's call. Will they ever be happy? That's the thing... you can't know until you try. And personally? I think it's worth the effort of trying, even if it's painful along the way... because one day where I have cause to smile makes a lot of that pain worth it...

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I believe you view happiness in a much more permanent sense than I do.  You are presuming that we are naturally happy and/or striving to further our happiness, and that is really the essence of who we are.

Again, call me a pessimist but I really just see happiness as moments that allow us to forget the bad stuff.  negative memory is much more powerful than happy memories and is bound to stick in our heads longer, and thus happiness has less permanence.  The more moments of happiness we experience, the more we forget the bad.

In connection, people who have lost these moments completely in their lives have no way to erase the bad and it takes over.  And that's when the true hopelessness sets in.

....know that I'm not really attacking your stance here.  Just thinking.....and playing the devils advocate.

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Around and around and around we spin,
With feet of lead and wings of tin

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Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:43 pm on Aug. 12, 2008

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No, I do think that certain things will last forever.  My sister even told me when I moved in with her, that certain things between my mother and father (like arguments and the like) will never leave me.  Some of the effects and the fear will probably always stay.  

 Emotions can't be gotten rid of, and the things of the past are hard to control.  

 The thing is, I don't think that suicide is the only way to deal with a problem.  While you can't get RID of something, you can find ways to come to terms with it.  I just think it's a matter of searching for your reason to keep living.

---

I'm not saying by any means that suicide is the only way to solve a problem, nor am I saying that it is the only solution in certain situations. What I am suggesting here is that maybe sometimes, for some people...it really is the only way out.

Yes, there are plenty of ways to deal with a problem but sometimes people just plain run out of ways that work. And then what? When things stop getting better, and no one can tell you why; it becomes hard to find a reason to keep living. And honestly, I find it very difficult to say in that situation that suicide isn't justified.

---

Ultimately, suicide is the person's choice.  But even in the toughest situations, with the strongest feelings of guilt, or the most painful memories, I think that if you can keep going and just have the hope for finding something that will allow you to at least accept it and move on... you may be able to get through.

 It's hard to say, when it comes to the human mind, there's nothign that you can say or do that will instantly work.  You can over and over again tell someone that they were NOT the cause of a friend's suicide, or that they shouldn't blame themselves, but that doesn't mean they will feel any different.  However, if they keep going, may they be able to find something that helps them?  Quite possibly.

---

Yes, quite possibly that will (and does) happen. And that should always be the ultimate goal-to help one another through things. Like I said, I am not advocating an end to sucide prevention just because it can sometimes be justified.

What I am arguing here is that perhaps only an individual can know best that they have reached the end of the line, and that something will never leave their memory, or that they will never overcome somehting. This is usually the result of a long hard fight with what they are dealing with. Suicide is almost always a last resort.

At the time this conclusion is reached, perhaps it is better of us to accept that giving them the peace of ending it is the best thing to do.

---

I suppose I see it this way.  

 All throughout EVERYONE'S lives, it's just a constant search for happiness.  Once we have one thing, we want another... when something bad happens, it erases all the previous good and we get stuck with the memory of only the bad.  Life is just a matter of continuing to work forward and finding the things in life that DO make you happy.  Can someone that suffers from the memory of the past be happy?  I think that with some time, they may really be able to do that.  It's whether or not they give themselves the time, or have the hope that maybe things won't be so bad if they try for it.  

 But like I said before, it's ultimately the person's call.  Will they ever be happy?  That's the thing... you can't know until you try.  And personally?  I think it's worth the effort of trying, even if it's painful along the way... because one day where I have cause to smile makes a lot of that pain worth it...

---

I believe you view happiness in a much more permanent sense than I do. You are presuming that we are naturally happy and/or striving to further our happiness, and that is really the essence of who we are.

Again, call me a pessimist but I really just see happiness as moments that allow us to forget the bad stuff. negative memory is much more powerful than happy memories and is bound to stick in our heads longer, and thus happiness has less permanence. The more moments of happiness we experience, the more we forget the bad.  

In connection, people who have lost these moments completely in their lives have no way to erase the bad and it takes over. And that's when the true hopelessness sets in.

 
....know that I'm not really attacking your stance here. Just thinking.....and playing the devils advocate.

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No, I know you aren't attacking my stance.  Ironically, I'm playing the devil's advocate for YOUR original post, so it's kind of strange, because I agree with your original post, but essentially gave the reasons why I think someone should always keep fighting for it, even if they see no reason for it.

I don't think happiness is permanent, by any means.  Which is why I stated that ONE day where I can smile, sometimes makes a lot of that pain worth it.  The bad memories stick so much, and people overlook the good... they fail to remember one amazing day, when it's surrounded by negative things.  And ultimately?  One little bad thing, like milk spilling on the table, can be SO huge, when it's backed up by a multitude of little things.

Like you said, who am I to tell someone that there's something better?  The thing is, some people don't want to try any more.  You can't say you've tried EVERYTHING, because life is ALWAYS changing, and opportunities arise, and if you take them, sometimes things can get better.  The thing with depression and other emotional issues?  It often overrides logic.

That momentary point where logic is gone is the one moment where you're most susceptible.  Depression removes happiness... but more damaging is the fact that it removes HOPE.  And that's why it's so powerful and in a sense dangerous.  Im more or less a pessimist at heart (it depends on my mood), but I also don't think that everything can continue to go wrong always.  I think life is lived for those little moments, or even just a feeling of accomplishment that you did something you didn't originally think possible...

Who knows, I'm rambling.  I would write osmething more concise, but I'm already going to be a bit late for work :P.  See ya!

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I'm not saying by any means that suicide is the only way to solve a problem, nor am I saying that it is the only solution in certain situations.  What I am suggesting here is that maybe sometimes, for some people...it really is the only way out.

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Haha.  

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miimiis loves ampamps~ NYA :3

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Quote: from greatescape11 at 2:02 pm on Aug. 12, 2008

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I'm not saying by any means that suicide is the only way to solve a problem, nor am I saying that it is the only solution in certain situations. What I am suggesting here is that maybe sometimes, for some people...it really is the only way out.

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Haha.

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Well thought out post.

Leave.

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Around and around and around we spin,
With feet of lead and wings of tin