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Right, but Obama strikes me more as an Islamo-communist than an Islamo-fascist.

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Quote: from King kong at 7:55 am on July 10, 2008

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you sir are a fool

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Yes. And where exactly are you getting this information? Obama's whole opinion on the war in Iraq is that we need to move OUT of Iraq. not continue what we are doing there.

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Not at all, from his website:

"Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda."

Al Qeada is building bases in Iraq right now (and we are blowing them up) thus so long as they build bases we will have a considerable military presence in Iraq.  Why do you believe that they will be less likely to build bases when we are less of a threat to them by having a few brigades moved out (btw Bush's plan also called for troop withdraws of this level after the surge so it isn't even change).

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Quote: from Elm at 3:57 pm on July 10, 2008

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Quote: from King kong at 7:55 am on July 10, 2008

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you sir are a fool

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 Then it should be very easy to show how I am foolish by showing how the information I posted was somehow inaccurate.  Seeing that it isn't and all you've done is made a ad hominem attack on me while posting nothing that adds to the conversation I am forced by the evidence to suggest that you should take your own comment in stride good sir.

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http://www.barackobama.com/splash/

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You like to a splash page, can't you even both to link to his issues section?  I just cut and passed directly from his Iraq position which clearly states he will leave a considerable military presence in Iraq.

Do you not believe he voted for the Patriot Act renewal or do you nto believe he voted in support of FISA?  I can link both Senate voting lists if you'd like.

he can change the color of the flowers in the white house and upheld his end of the bargain.

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Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money
come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and
without cost.-Isaiah 55:1
www.wateringmalawi.com

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Quote: from Elm at 7:58 am on July 10, 2008

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Quote: from woodbridgeguy1 at 7:56 am on July 10, 2008

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Being an Italian who knows a lot about Mussolini (from history books and second hand accounts), I can assure you that him and Obama are completely different. Although I do not support Obama I do not think it is fair or justified to be comparing him to Mussolini.

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 I compared them only in one respect - that of wanting change.  Is this not true?

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A lot of people want change. Hitler wanted change. So why don't we just call Obama the new Hitler??  

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The point is that change by itself means nothing and can be worse than what we have.  Change is a slogan and an empty one at that.  Examine the kind of change and value that not the expression.  His campaign is based on an empty slogan - does that make you feel good?

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Quote: from girlygrl at 7:59 am on July 10, 2008

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Quote: from Elm at 7:58 am on July 10, 2008

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Quote: from woodbridgeguy1 at 7:56 am on July 10, 2008

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Being an Italian who knows a lot about Mussolini (from history books and second hand accounts), I can assure you that him and Obama are completely different. Although I do not support Obama I do not think it is fair or justified to be comparing him to Mussolini.

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  I compared them only in one respect - that of wanting change. Is this not true?

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 A lot of people want change. Hitler wanted change. So why don't we just call Obama the new Hitler??

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The point is that change by itself means nothing and can be worse than what we have. Change is a slogan and an empty one at that. Examine the kind of change and value that not the expression. His campaign is based on an empty slogan - does that make you feel good?

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agreed.

promising change sounds pretty and means absolutely nothing.

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Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money
come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and
without cost.-Isaiah 55:1
www.wateringmalawi.com

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Well America pulling out of Iraq is the ol' you are damned if you do and your damned if you don't. Enjoy!

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This commie bastard is right.

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Im not convinced by Obama's rhetoric either but he should be the next president simply because of what he represents, specific issues be damned. America is in serious need of liberalising pyschologically and socially. McCain will retard this, just like Bush did. I'm not saying policy is irrelevant, it's not, and Obama's is considerably better than McCain's. It's just being a black, fairly liberal candidate is a very good policy of itself.

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The only good I see Obama doing is finally shutting up the race-baiting bastards that make a living by driving racial wedges between people in order to exploit them.  (Hi Jesse Jackson I'm talking about you, asshole).

The problem is that a President cannot make people more liberal (in the literary sense) that takes a change of mind which requires serious discussion for hours on end and that is only effective if the person has certain core moral a priori's.  If they have different ones then it is totally useless.  What he can do, what all President's have done is force his personal ideals into laws mandated via force - all in violation of our highest law.  These violations make it easier for the next President to make more violations in their pet areas..continue the seesaw until all liberties are eroded on every facet and we live in a police state.

I can always count on you for at least a decent response even if I disagree with it so thank you.

In this way political leaders, like a president of the US, can change attitudes without legislation. Kennedy did it the best, the real tragedy of his death was, like we learnt from Hunter S., that it signalled the end of governments who actually seemed to listen and care.

This is of course rather seperate to the debate about actual policy, but I'm too drunk to get into all that now. Suffice to say the stereotypes still ring true about young black liberals verses old waspy rightwingers, after 8 years of Bush it seems to me that this counts for a lot in America at the moment.

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Massive, epic adventure, multi-coloured, multi-layered.
Sort of two/three dimensional Wizard of Oz for the future.

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An Obama victory would surely ease tension in both black and white communities (for want of better phrases). If black people feel oppressed or left out, irregardless of how true this is, it would serve as infinite inspiration for some black people and other non-whites. For white people, let's say white people and communities who have issues with black people in general, it would drive another rusty nail into their heads. So to speak.

In this way political leaders, like a president of the US, can change attitudes without legislation. Kennedy did it the best, the real tragedy of his death was, like we learnt from Hunter S., that it signalled the end of governments who actually seemed to listen and care.

This is of course rather seperate to the debate about actual policy, but I'm too drunk to get into all that now. Suffice to say the stereotypes still ring true about young black liberals verses old waspy rightwingers, after 8 years of Bush it seems to me that this counts for a lot in America at the moment.

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I do worry what price we will pay for a psychological band aid.

Oh by happenstance I was looking at the news and it appears Jesse Jackson is worried about the same thing I am hopeful of.  Hes been caught now at an open mic insulting Obama.

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Not at all, from his website:  

"Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda."  

Al Qeada is building bases in Iraq right now (and we are blowing them up) thus so long as they build bases we will have a considerable military presence in Iraq.  Why do you believe that they will be less likely to build bases when we are less of a threat to them by having a few brigades moved out (btw Bush's plan also called for troop withdraws of this level after the surge so it isn't even change).

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First of all, it's not "a few brigades" Obama would move out. It's all of them. And the only reason he would keep any there would be to protect Americans both in Iraq and in America. Second, even if it isn't all that different from Bush's plan, that doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
Also, McCain wants to keep *all* the troops in Iraq, and if these are the two candidates to choose between, Obama is a better pick as far as Iraq is concerned.

Post edited at 8:43 am on July 10, 2008 by gogreengeckos8D

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Quote: from Elm at 8:01 am on July 10, 2008

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Not at all, from his website:  

"Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda."  

Al Qeada is building bases in Iraq right now (and we are blowing them up) thus so long as they build bases we will have a considerable military presence in Iraq.  Why do you believe that they will be less likely to build bases when we are less of a threat to them by having a few brigades moved out (btw Bush's plan also called for troop withdraws of this level after the surge so it isn't even change).

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First of all, it's not "a few brigades" Obama would move out. It's all of them. And the only reason he would keep any there would be to protect Americans both in Iraq and in America. Second, even if it isn't all that different from Bush's plan, that doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
Also, McCain wants to keep *all* the troops in Iraq, and if these are the two candidates to choose between, Obama is a better pick as far as Iraq is concerned.

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What part of this phrase "if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda" mentions that he will keep an amount of troops in Iraq which is less than we have now?

No part of it functions as the escape clause which he can say that Al Qeada is still building bases (which they've done throughout post war Iraq) and so we can't remove troops yet.

There are also more than two candidates to choose from.