Post edited at 12:19 pm on Jan. 29, 2009 by Parsine

If you want an easy start, go for something simple.

Python is excellent for letting you think clearly about the actual process without worrying about implementation details like type etc,. It'll make programming at the beginning fun and easy, and there's lots of support for the language everyone since everyone seems to have a love affair with it.

If you want to get down and dirty and learn everything you will ever need to know?

C. Start with C, and you will learn one of the most efficient languages we have. It'll be tough, you will yell to the heavens, but you will become a damn good programmer. Then learn C++ and you'll be covered for object orientated programming. This way, you'll be prepared to learn any other language easily, because they're all heaven in comparison.

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Windows, For when you don't know any better.
Mac, for when you think you do.
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Go from C into C++, touch a it a little bit, then get a Win32 programming book and go to town.

C# is okay, but it isn't as much fun.

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And that song ain't so very far from wrong.

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Pascal is a very good programming language to learn for someone who has no previous programming experience.

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BULLSHIT.

Learn python or any interpreted language don't start with a compiled specific type language because those will be gone by the time you finish learning them.

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Quote: from DefaultTo0 at 7:09 am on Sep. 7, 2008

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Pascal is a very good programming language to learn for someone who has no previous programming experience.

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BULLSHIT.

Learn python or any interpreted language don't start with a compiled specific type language because those will be gone by the time you finish learning them.

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Not bullshit, actually.

It teaches you very good programming practices.  It is much better to have a good understanding of programming principles than to learn a specific language.  If you have a good fundamental knowledge of programming at a low level, then you should be able to learn any similar language in a matter of hours / days.

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What?

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Quote: from DefaultTo0 at 7:09 am on Sep. 7, 2008

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Pascal is a very good programming language to learn for someone who has no previous programming experience.

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BULLSHIT.

Learn python or any interpreted language don't start with a compiled specific type language because those will be gone by the time you finish learning them.

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You have got to be kidding me! Typed languages will not fade my friend. Just because languages like Ruby and Python are type free and gain advantages from this concept DOES NOT mean that type free languages will oust type ones.

If you take time to read your history you will find that every time someone has tried to create a language or category of languages to solve every programmers problem ... they fail UTTERLY and end up as examples of "what not to try and do".

PL/1, the Algol line, and Ada ... all languages designed to meet every programmer's needs. All failures.

What does this have to do with you saying that type free languages will dominate the programming world? It's the claim ... and the ignorance that they share.

Type free languages share a commonality ... they are interpreted... interpreters share a commonality ... they are MUCH slower than compiled or JIT languages!

In closing, it is ignorant and uneducated to boast a claim like that. Every language paradigm has its benefits and its defecits, thus why many exist so that programmers can choose the right tool for the job.

As an after thought, when you can program a game similar to Crysis, FarCry, Half-life, any decent MMO, Call of Duty 4, etc.... THEN you can make that claim. Because the simple fact is, it can't be done and be expected to run efficiently on any economic machine.  

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Quote: from ranman at 2:05 am on Feb. 4, 2009

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Quote: from DefaultTo0 at 7:09 am on Sep. 7, 2008

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Pascal is a very good programming language to learn for someone who has no previous programming experience.

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 BULLSHIT.  

 Learn python or any interpreted language don't start with a compiled specific type language because those will be gone by the time you finish learning them.

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You have got to be kidding me! Typed languages will not fade my friend. Just because languages like Ruby and Python are type free and gain advantages from this concept DOES NOT mean that type free languages will oust type ones.

If you take time to read your history you will find that every time someone has tried to create a language or category of languages to solve every programmers problem ... they fail UTTERLY and end up as examples of "what not to try and do".

PL/1, the Algol line, and Ada ... all languages designed to meet every programmer's needs. All failures.

What does this have to do with you saying that type free languages will dominate the programming world? It's the claim ... and the ignorance that they share.

Type free languages share a commonality ... they are interpreted... interpreters share a commonality ... they are MUCH slower than compiled or JIT languages!  

In closing, it is ignorant and uneducated to boast a claim like that. Every language paradigm has its benefits and its defecits, thus why many exist so that programmers can choose the right tool for the job.

As an after thought, when you can program a game similar to Crysis, FarCry, Half-life, any decent MMO, Call of Duty 4, etc.... THEN you can make that claim. Because the simple fact is, it can't be done and be expected to run efficiently on any economic machine.

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Well I appreciate the nice debate we've got going on here and now that we've got some real stuff to talk about I'll drop the ignorance and explain my reasoning?

We're reaching a time where performance matters less and less, don't believe me? Look here: http://osnews.com/story/5602/Nine_Language_Performance_Round-up_Benchmarking_Math_File_I_O/page3/" target="_top">http://http://osnews.com/story/5602/Nine_Language_Performance_Round-up_Benchmarking_Math_File_I_O/page3/

and those are results from 2004.

I'm not debating the point that compiled languages will always be faster, that's probably a gimme. But by the time 2013 rolls around or whenever this guy is going to graduate all of the languages like C will only be around in OS code, if that. I was mainly reacting to the fact that pascal was a good programming language to learn... it's a terrible first language. if you want to debate that to maybe we should start another topic... oh and I'll say this now obviously these are only my opinions and stuff so don't go getting all offended or whatever.

So back to my topic... what was it? Yes why interpreted code is better... as computer performance increases the gap between interpreted code and bytecode will probably decrease... you could argue that it will remain static but I figure if the processor is faster and they're more of them then one can be compiling and the other can be executing or something I don't pretend to know enough about that to be sure.

I do know this, one of the most important languages of our day, one that makes the web go round is javascript and it's interpreted and it's a great language to learn (probably not for a first language though). There millions of examples and lots to learn from, and you can get immediate results. I know this as well in less than 10 years the performance of javascript in EVERY single browser has improved 100 fold at least.

In the last three years we've DOUBLED the speed of javascript... can you say the same of C and Java or others? (In fact java has actually gotten slower in some places... with good reason I suppose).

Maybe I'm wrong and Javascript is just a younger language so there's more time for it to improve while C and others are much older and more refined. I don't think we're going to continue doubling the speed but I definitely think we'll see some kind of increase...

I think an interpreted language is best to learn because it starts you off with something that doesn't require advanced knowledge but as you learn the language you pick up more and more of the advanced stuff and eventually you can apply it to C or whatever you want to work with.

And seriously what is this guy going to be doing with C that he needs so much speed for, he's not making the next COD4 (at least not yet). And without someone there teaching him or someone else learning with him he'll never have that competitve aspect that might push him over some of the humps of learning a complex language (pointers... whatever, and all of you who are totally self motivated and never take help from anyone are full of bull because you've never done real programming till you've had to work with a team or at least had to have someone help you)

that is all lol.

The truth is really somewhere in the middle. Even on a 4.77 MHz PC interpreted batch files were "fast enough"... for SOME tasks! On the other hand, even on a multicore next-generation game console C/C++ will still be mandatory since the games are supposed to look even better than the previous generation.

As computers got faster, the number of tasks that could be done with less efficient (but more convenient) tools increased. But usually this also requires a better infrastructure with more and more powerful libraries that are written in C/C++.

JIT languages are now at the point that most of their own libraries are written in Java/C# or whatever but I guess interpreted languages aren't up to that point yet... but it's not infeasible for them to get there.

We need some programmers who focus on those every bitty cycle things because they make the world go round... like accounts (I'm not knocking these guys just trying to make an analogy)... Then we need the creative types , the guys who'll spend 4 hours slaving over the positioning of a DIV in a page or something...

and we're really forgetting a lot of other factors about languages like learning curve, maintainability, tools, libraries, common support, and other stuff... it all goes into the speed and efficiency in the end.

I guess in the end computers are fast enough today that most problems are not going to be limited by the language you choose. Rather the architecture, design and quality of code will have a much more dramatic effect.

While its true that the relative performance between scripting languages and C will remain large for some time, so many apps are limited by UI input, network performance, I/O and other components that have not followed the dramatic increases in speed of the CPU, that focusing on this one issue is a little silly.

When you know one language is not hard to learn others.

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I hold that visual basic is the best programming language to learn as a beginner, it opens ideas of programming at a very basic and forgiving level

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Please say you're kidding. A forgiving language is the worst kind of language to learn first! Something unforgiving like Perl or C is the best way to start, it forces good practice on you and makes your future in the industry much more enjoyable and rewarding.

On an unrelated note, Ranman, just a heads up... no language is ever going to die out. Least of all the efficient ones. Efficiency will never, ever be overlooked, if you believe that then the only person you're fooling is yourself. Personal computers may well, in some cases such as web based applications where latency is the major factor, be able to justify interpreted languages, but the majority of applications will still require being as fast as feasibly possible. In any case, most programs aren't strictly for personal computing anyway, so if you're looking to get into the industry, as the OP said he was, then it's just not justified to spout what you are.

Post edited at 1:34 pm on Mar. 29, 2009 by allsmiles

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