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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 11:51 pm on Dec. 19, 2008

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 Imaginations are fun.

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Too bad Santa didn't bring Bearsy one for christmas...

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To be fair, I agree with Bearsy on the point of not telling your kids that there's a Santa Claus.

Pretending is a completely different story.

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

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Ok if a stand-up comedian tells you and an audience a story about his parents dying that you know is made-up, because it's just not supposed to be believable, it's different than if I tell you that my parents died and there's no implication that I'm making it up.

If I was your friend irl and you found out I was lying about that, you'd probably feel mad, but you won't feel mad if you read about the stand-up comedians parents because you never really believed his funny story.

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someone's parents dying isn't really a great comparison with father christmas, tbh.

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- لورين

Love, all alike, no season knows nor clime,
Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.

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Quote: from Event Horizon at 2:16 am on Dec. 20, 2008

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 11:51 pm on Dec. 19, 2008

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  Imaginations are fun.

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 Too bad Santa didn't bring Bearsy one for christmas...

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To be fair, I agree with Bearsy on the point of not telling your kids that there's a Santa Claus.

Pretending is a completely different story.

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It may just be me, but this concept just seems terribly irrational. I see absolutely nothing wrong with telling your kids that santa exists. Childhood is a time of magic and wonder. Kids believe in elves and fairies and leprechauns. It is a fun time in their life. Then, they reach an age where they come to understand that those things actually don't exist. The transition from believing in santa [as well as those other things] to understanding that magic was just what you believed in as a little kid should --and from my experience and pretty much every one I know-- be smooth and rational.

I had a decent imagination as a kid --I guess I still do, too-- and found no trouble believing in santa. My parents would do all SORTS of things like eat the cookies, drink the milk [and take rough bites out of the carrots --for the reindeer!]. One year [when I was like 4 or something] they even sprinkled glitter on the snow so my brother and I would think that it was some sort of magic dust from the sleigh. And it was a great fucking time, let me tell you. Then, i guess around 10 or 11 [i don't really remember] I started to doubt it. I set out on the hunt for the pre-wrapped gifts, and, what do you know, found them hiding in the basement. At first, yea, I was disappointed, but not with my parents, just at the fact that now the magic was gone. And I made sure that my little brother never went near that corner of the house, to make sure he kept believing too.

I mean, believe what you want, but I think it's selfish and irrational to resent your parents for trying to make christmas exciting and magical.

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Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

*shrug* My childhood was probably a great deal more magical than yours, and I know that I had (and have) a better imagination than most people I know. I'm not really lacking, so I don't really see the purpose.

-------
Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

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Once again--my parents never told me that there was a Santa Claus, so I had no reason to resent them. I just don't see a single plausible argument in here that makes telling your kids that there is a Santa Claus (and thereby lying to them) better than telling them from the get-go that one doesn't exist.  

*shrug* My childhood was probably a great deal more magical than yours, and I know that I had (and have) a better imagination than most people I know. I'm not really lacking, so I don't really see the purpose.

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because it's enjoyable fun? that's the only reason. it's not harmful, children enjoy it. that's the purpose. just because it isn't a necessity for a happy childhood, doesn't make it any less enjoyable for children.

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- لورين

Love, all alike, no season knows nor clime,
Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.

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because it's enjoyable fun? that's the only reason. it's not harmful, children enjoy it. that's the purpose. just because it isn't a necessity for a happy childhood, doesn't make it any less enjoyable for children.

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It's also enjoyable to know that there isn't a Santa Claus and pretend that one exists anyway. I'm still not seeing a good argument here.

-------
Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

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It's also enjoyable to know that there isn't a Santa Claus and pretend that one exists anyway. I'm still not seeing a good argument here.

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there's not argument either way, it's a completely academic point. believing in father christmas is fun for kids, and whatever you did with father christmas was probably fun too.

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- لورين

Love, all alike, no season knows nor clime,
Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 1:36 pm on Dec. 21, 2008

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It's also enjoyable to know that there isn't a Santa Claus and pretend that one exists anyway. I'm still not seeing a good argument here.

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there's not argument either way, it's a completely academic point. believing in father christmas is fun for kids, and whatever you did with father christmas was probably fun too.

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Actually, that's kind of the point of the topic: it's a discussion of whether or not it's good to tell kids that there's a Santa Claus. I've seen no good argument to suggest that it's any better than telling them the truth from the beginning.

-------
Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

---

Actually, that's kind of the point of the topic: it's a discussion of whether or not it's good to tell kids that there's a Santa Claus. I've seen no good argument to suggest that it's any better than telling them the truth from the beginning.

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I've seen no good argument as to why it matters either way.

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- لورين

Love, all alike, no season knows nor clime,
Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.

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Fenrir, no ad hominems in this thread. This isn't a diss thread, it's an argument thread.

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Quote: from Its Bearsy Bitch at 8:47 pm on Dec. 15, 2008

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Fenrir, no ad hominems in this thread. This isn't a diss thread, it's an argument thread.

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Which you failed to adequately dismiss my arguments logically.. was that my fault that you were incapable of articulate your argument moderately coherently.. In fact, Abby seemed to have more insight over the validity of choice between parents and children and one's understanding of moral development; however, you have yet to explain how one's appeal to imaginative stories at the sake of instilling a moral foundation for a child's life is at all hurtful besides merely being untruthful. It is on this ground that you still fail, and I'd appreciate you not dismissing my argument as purely Ad Hominem, which my referring to you advocating the death of a morally bankrupt elderly woman and distribution of her wealth was as you argued a moral good [Note: You said this of your own volition, therefore, cannot be considered as a personal attack from my part to merely cite facts. I could be wrong in this assumption.]

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You're still ignoring that there's a difference between telling a story that has the understanding of just being a story and purposely lying to people.

Not to mention that if you need a Santa Claus story to make your kids behave, you're a piss-poor parent.

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

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Quote: from fenrir at 5:34 am on Dec. 23, 2008

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Quote: from Its Bearsy Bitch at 8:47 pm on Dec. 15, 2008

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Fenrir, no ad hominems in this thread. This isn't a diss thread, it's an argument thread.

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Which you failed to adequately dismiss my arguments logically.. was that my fault that you were incapable of articulate your argument moderately coherently..  In fact, Abby seemed to have more insight over the validity of choice between parents and children and one's understanding of moral development; however, you have yet to explain how one's appeal to imaginative stories at the sake of instilling a moral foundation for a child's life is at all hurtful besides merely being untruthful.  It is on this ground that you still fail, and I'd appreciate you not dismissing my argument as purely Ad Hominem, which my referring to you advocating the death of a morally bankrupt elderly woman and distribution of her wealth was as you argued a moral good [Note: You said this of your own volition, therefore, cannot be considered as a personal attack from my part to merely cite facts.  I could be wrong in this assumption.]

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You're still ignoring that there's a difference between telling a story that has the understanding of just being a story and purposely lying to people.

Not to mention that if you need a Santa Claus story to make your kids behave, you're a piss-poor parent.

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In fact, children aren't being manipulated.. they're receiving gifts and being open to a possibility that appreciates majesty, wonder, generosity, etc.  Doing what is right, because it is right is a moral compass, no?  We're not required to be good even while nobody else is looking, but its our choice in doing so.. which parents might take this principle a bit further by rewarding their children for good behavior with gifts?  Women expect arbitrary gifts.. even if you say that you wouldn't want them, I highly doubt that you'd turn away a gift from your fiance.. but let's throw out the possibility that you and your fiance have a child.. he gives your child titled "From Santa" in the caption, would you pull your child aside and say, "Daddy's a liar.. don't be fooled."

And do try to be how you speak with me via messenger, please?

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"How incitful of you, dwarf. Though I can't speak for fenrir,
I beleive that he too has a certain degree of sarcasm
and humor in his posts." - Prince o palities

Furthermore, as you consider yourself to be a Christian, what our culture does and does not do is irrelevent. The Bible says very clearly "do not lie," and it's never rescinded at any point. So, well, there's that for you to consider.

As to what I'm doing with my fiance, that's rather irrelevent to this discussion.

-------
Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

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It wasn't meant as hurtful, but it's true--if you need to tell kids that a magical nonexistant fat man won't break into their house and eat their food unless they're good in order to make them behave, I question your parenting skills.  

Furthermore, as you consider yourself to be a Christian, what our culture does and does not do is irrelevent. The Bible says very clearly "do not lie," and it's never rescinded at any point. So, well, there's that for you to consider.

As to what I'm doing with my fiance, that's rather irrelevent to this discussion.

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As for your "do not lie" [More importantly being "Do not bear false witness.."] quip, beware the nature of interpretation and continual application of covenant relationships of an unseen or conceivably unknowable, unfathomable, etc. deity..

I'd much rather at this point to simply agree to disagree, because neither one of us wants to budge our issue.

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"How incitful of you, dwarf. Though I can't speak for fenrir,
I beleive that he too has a certain degree of sarcasm
and humor in his posts." - Prince o palities