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Quote: from TheLastMagister at 10:19 pm on Jan. 9, 2009

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I would like to point out that a mental illness merely is saying that there is an abnormality in either the chemical balance of their brain or their thoughts when compared to a normal person's mind/brain.

In other words, mental illness assumes that if you don't think the same, and don't have the same chemical balance, then therefore there is something wrong with you so they need to fix it to be like everyone else's so you can be "well" which actually just means "conformed".

There is no treatment, because it isn't a disease. It's a mindset that the majority doesn't possess, so they assume it's wrong, they assume it's an illness, and even if the chemicals aren't the same, that doesn't mean they are a bad thing. The reason people do want help is because they want to conform, but not everyone wants to think the same way.

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It's not always a chemical imbalance, sometimes it's due to a trauma or a negligent upbringing or excessive stress - many things. depression is not some sort of alternative mindset, any more than cancer is just an alternative lifestyle choice. you're romanticizing mental illness.

I'd wager that the vast majority of people suffering from depression don't actually WANT to be depressed. suicide isn't an option which is gladly chosen.

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I'd wager you have no means to justify that claim, so therefore you cannot claim that the same solution is applicable to everyone who is suicidal. You merely assume based off what society has taught you that this is to be true.

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I'm not wasted potential, you're just not worth my time.
The impossibility of perfection will tear me apart.
There's only so much you can do.
The Broken.

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But do you know what the difference is between cancer and depression? One kills you directly, one just changes your thought process. Depression may, or may not, lead to suicide, and if you don't really want to die, then you will purposely botch things as a cry for help. Those are the people that need to be in the clinics.

I'd wager you have no means to justify that claim, so therefore you cannot claim that the same solution is applicable to everyone who is suicidal. You merely assume based off what society has taught you that this is to be true.

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No, no that's not the difference between cancer and depression. If you think depression is something which merely "changes your thought process" then you have greatly misunderstood the nature and definition of depression, and depressive disorders.

You think you could find evidence to claim that suicidal people would rather be dead than living happily? I would PAY to see it.

And really, there is no need for this unbearable double conversation. I'm not going to reply to PMs any longer, if you have something to say on this topic, keep it in this topic.

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- لورين

Love, all alike, no season knows nor clime,
Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.

Suicide is merely self inflicted death. Death is going to happen anyways, the only difference is they did it themselves. If they want to, more power to them, it's not positive, or negative. "

When talking about illness, or mental illness - I don't feel comfortable veering outside scientific definites and the consensus of mental health professionals, or health professionals. Giving experimental and abstract academic consideration to societal constructs like television, the law, the Church, religion, government, literature, art is different from resisting medical understanding to disorders and illness like depression, or leukemia - denying either of them would be dangerous in a very physical sense.  

Suicide is not "merely" self-inflicted death, people do not kill themselves with such a blase attitude. If death is not a negative thing, then why are we bothering? why are we bothering trying to save people from illness, why are we bothering trying to live at all? Self-preservation is in our gut, it's part of our make-up; a person doesn't just reject this for no reason whatsoever.

Post edited at 3:10 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 by Fauna

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- لورين

Love, all alike, no season knows nor clime,
Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.

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Quote: from TheLastMagister at 10:42 pm on Jan. 9, 2009

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But do you know what the difference is between cancer and depression? One kills you directly, one just changes your thought process. Depression may, or may not, lead to suicide, and if you don't really want to die, then you will purposely botch things as a cry for help. Those are the people that need to be in the clinics.

I'd wager you have no means to justify that claim, so therefore you cannot claim that the same solution is applicable to everyone who is suicidal. You merely assume based off what society has taught you that this is to be true.

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No, no that's not the difference between cancer and depression. If you think depression is something which merely "changes your thought process" then you have greatly misunderstood the nature and definition of depression, and depressive disorders.

You think you could find evidence to claim that suicidal people would rather be dead than living happily? I would PAY to see it.

And really, there is no need for this unbearable double conversation. I'm not going to reply to PMs any longer, if you have something to say on this topic, keep it in this topic.

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I could speak anecdotally, and I know that it is a perfectly reasonable way of thinking that if you do not like your life, and do not wish for things that have happened in the past to happen again, if you can control them or not, then it does make sense to commit suicide. To be quite frank the only reason you are speaking to me right now is because of one of the aforementioned groups used guilt over me so I couldn't, knowing they were feeling the way they were. While I know that a large number of people who are suicidal want help, some really don't, and it's wrong that they are often forced to stay here, because people think there is something wrong with them. Sometimes they just want everything to be over. So no, your preconceived notions of being suicidal aren't correct in that they all want to be happy and fixed, sometimes people just don't want to try anymore.

Post edited at 3:16 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 by The Last Magister

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I'm not wasted potential, you're just not worth my time.
The impossibility of perfection will tear me apart.
There's only so much you can do.
The Broken.

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"I am really rather surprised then if you are doing all of this, you can still give a definite positive and negative. The last time I checked, when applying terms like that to human behavior, it's perspective, commonly brought on by popular culture.
Such as death. Death is not a negative thing, yet people fear it, as does popular culture.

Suicide is merely self inflicted death. Death is going to happen anyways, the only difference is they did it themselves. If they want to, more power to them, it's not positive, or negative. "

When talking about illness, or mental illness - I don't feel comfortable veering outside scientific definites and the consensus of mental health professionals, or health professionals. Giving experimental and abstract academic consideration to societal constructs like television, the law, the Church, religion, government, literature, art is different from resisting medical understanding to disorders and illness like depression, or leukemia - denying either of them would be dangerous in a very physical sense.

Suicide is not "merely" self-inflicted death, people do not kill themselves with such a blase attitude. If death is not a negative thing, then why are we bothering? why are we bothering trying to save people from illness, why are we bothering trying to live at all? Self-preservation is in our gut, it's part of our make-up; a person doesn't just reject this for no reason whatsoever.

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However, you answered your own question, because humanity has evolved to want to survive. But does that mean that everything we are programmed with is normal? In that case many things that are considered illegal and immoral would be allowed, because that would mean degrading ourselves to mere animals incapable of intensive thought.

In otherwords, unless you also believe that we should all be killing each other when we want something, running around butt naked with bones and clubs, don't say something isn't right because humanity wasn't created doing so.

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I'm not wasted potential, you're just not worth my time.
The impossibility of perfection will tear me apart.
There's only so much you can do.
The Broken.

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Rofl, I'd like you to tell me what else it changes if it's a mental illness and the primary function of the mind is to think. It's the thoughts, subconscious and conscious, that control your actions.  

I could speak anecdotally, and I know that it is a perfectly reasonable way of thinking that if you do not like your life, and do not wish for things that have happened in the past to happen again, if you can control them or not, then it does make sense to commit suicide. To be quite frank the only reason you are speaking to me right now is because of one of the aforementioned groups used guilt over me so I couldn't, knowing they were feeling the way they were. While I know that a large number of people who are suicidal want help, some really don't, and it's wrong that they are often forced to stay here, because people think there is something wrong with them. Sometimes they just want everything to be over. So no, your preconcieved notions of being suicidal aren't correct in that they all want to be happy and fixed, sometimes people just don't want to try anymore.

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Urgh, saying depression merely changes your thought process is too reductive. This is horrifically pedantic. Depression affects your thoughts, your emotions, your behaviour, your ability to function in the world, it can affect you physically, and all negatively; you could reduce it to "it changes your thought process" but this is terribly myopic.

some people don't want to seek out help, some people don't want to try anymore and I don't think suicide is a terrible thing to do - if you knew me in real life, you would know why a thought like that would never cross my mind. I do think we, as a society (and you can argue against the notion of society, but this is one of its more altruistic functions) should to try and preserve life, and to help people if they can possibly be helped, however. So many people are lost in their illness, and don't believe there is help or don't know how to find help and suicide becomes an option out of desperation - to take on your attitude would be a huge step back in terms of awareness and helping to pull people out of depression before they reach that moment of nihilistic apathy.

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- لورين

Love, all alike, no season knows nor clime,
Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.

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Well, I quite liked the point you made as something to think about, and thought the way it was presented was amusing. However, the development of the topic is hilarious. I see circles.

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Quote: from TheLastMagister at 11:10 pm on Jan. 9, 2009

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 Rofl, I'd like you to tell me what else it changes if it's a mental illness and the primary function of the mind is to think. It's the thoughts, subconscious and conscious, that control your actions.

 I could speak anecdotally, and I know that it is a perfectly reasonable way of thinking that if you do not like your life, and do not wish for things that have happened in the past to happen again, if you can control them or not, then it does make sense to commit suicide. To be quite frank the only reason you are speaking to me right now is because of one of the aforementioned groups used guilt over me so I couldn't, knowing they were feeling the way they were. While I know that a large number of people who are suicidal want help, some really don't, and it's wrong that they are often forced to stay here, because people think there is something wrong with them. Sometimes they just want everything to be over. So no, your preconcieved notions of being suicidal aren't correct in that they all want to be happy and fixed, sometimes people just don't want to try anymore.

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Urgh, saying depression merely changes your thought process is too reductive. This is horrifically pedantic. Depression affects your thoughts, your emotions, your behaviour, your ability to function in the world, it can affect you physically, and all negatively; you could reduce it to "it changes your thought process" but this is terribly myopic.  

some people don't want to seek out help, some people don't want to try anymore and I don't think suicide is a terrible thing to do - if you knew me in real life, you would know why a thought like that would never cross my mind. I do think we, as a society (and you can argue against the notion of society, but this is one of its more altruistic functions) should to try and preserve life, and to help people if they can possibly be helped, however. So many people are lost in their illness, and don't believe there is help or don't know how to find help and suicide becomes an option out of desperation - to take on your attitude would be a huge step back in terms of awareness and helping to pull people out of depression before they reach that moment of nihilistic apathy.

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Again, you misunderstand me, to say the thought process in a belittling fashion would show ignorance on my part as thought is what makes us who we are.

I am not saying shut down every attempt to help suicidals, I am saying everyone needs to realize what death and suicide exactly imply, and that we need to stop thinking it's a "one size fits all" deal where everyone can and wants to be saved deep down.

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I'm not wasted potential, you're just not worth my time.
The impossibility of perfection will tear me apart.
There's only so much you can do.
The Broken.

Most people do want help, even those who don't are still in the throes of depression. It would be immoral to give in to the desires of a mentally ill person who says they want to die, without attempting to help them.

this argument is fatuous.

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- لورين

Love, all alike, no season knows nor clime,
Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.

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That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was saying you being reductive, removing the element of negativity to try and, ironically, normalize depression.

Most people do want help, even those who don't are still in the throes of depression. It would be immoral to give in to the desires of a mentally ill person who says they want to die, without attempting to help them.  

this argument is fatuous.

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On that note, depression is just a word. The connection made by it is what we are discussing, the word itself has no real value, so there is no irony to be had, unless you were to say that there is a definitive standard of normal. Which again brings me to the point of you can't merely assume what is normal and moral based off majority opinion, as history has shown us.

Furthermore, if well being is above the wants of the individual, then does that justify a totalitarian society that keeps your safety above your happiness? Do not say this is a bad analogy, because you are quite literally implying that if someone wants to die it's someone else's job to stop them even if they want to because their livelihood is more important.

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I'm not wasted potential, you're just not worth my time.
The impossibility of perfection will tear me apart.
There's only so much you can do.
The Broken.

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Quote: from Tasbard at 4:23 pm on Jan. 9, 2009

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I'd buy you an ice cream, but you're on the Internets.  

 My sample size is too small to warrant a valid opinion. The only person I've ever known who tried to commit suicide did it because of a deep need to be loved and admired and the center of attention... and a lack of confidence in her ability to gain it by any other means. Suicide isn't selfish, no, but telling people that it is definitely is.  

 As for the people who tell someone who is suicidal not to commit suicide for them are trying desperately to give that person a reason, any reason, to live. They are trying to express their love for that person.

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So it's alright to extort people and cause them even more pain if you love them?

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Well, no. It's probably alright to want them to be happy, though.

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Hypocrisy means never having to pick between 'right' and 'consistent'.

UGH. GOD. YOU'RE SO PEDANTIC. the reason it's ironic  is that you tried to reduce depression into something which sounded easy and acceptable i.e just a change of thought process, rather than the crippling mental illness it is because you keep making all these points about how awful the idea of normalcy is. I didn't think I'd have to explain.

Most societies place immediate safety and well-being of individuals above their immediate happiness, it's not totalitarian in this instance because the goal is for long-term happiness. Loads of psychotic people would be much happier going on killing sprees, but we restrict that happiness for their own safety and the safety of others. Same with anorexics, or drug addicts. I don't think we should stop people from killing themselves, but, if they attempt and fail we have a responsibility to offer them medical help.

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- لورين

Love, all alike, no season knows nor clime,
Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.

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Oh please, it is a fatuous argument - if you want to take that as a white flag, and do your victory dance, be my fucking guest. Also, your first paragraph a garble of nonsense.

UGH. GOD. YOU'RE SO PEDANTIC. the reason it's ironic  is that you tried to reduce depression into something which sounded easy and acceptable i.e just a change of thought process, rather than the crippling mental illness it is because you keep making all these points about how awful the idea of normalcy is. I didn't think I'd have to explain.

Most societies place immediate safety and well-being of individuals above their immediate happiness, it's not totalitarian in this instance because the goal is for long-term happiness. Loads of psychotic people would be much happier going on killing sprees, but we restrict that happiness for their own safety and the safety of others. Same with anorexics, or drug addicts. I don't think we should stop people from killing themselves, but, if they attempt and fail we have a responsibility to offer them medical help.

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Second, this topic has nothing to do with homicide. Taking someone else's choice of life away from them is what we are doing when we prevent suicide, not the reverse. In a way, preventing suicide is just as controlling as murder. As I have stated multiple times, I AGREE THAT THE AID SHOULD BE MADE AVAILABE just not shoved down their throats.

Also, my first paragraph was merely stating that you claim this argument to be stupid because you can't prove who is right or wrong, and you are in a position where if you cannot prove yourself right, you prove yourself wrong, it's the fault of taking an ultimate stance on anything.

Post edited at 4:32 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 by The Last Magister

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I'm not wasted potential, you're just not worth my time.
The impossibility of perfection will tear me apart.
There's only so much you can do.
The Broken.