---

Quote: from Gaelle at 5:46 am on Jan. 6, 2009

---

Quote: from Rastafarian at 5:44 am on Jan. 6, 2009

---

Ovens. :roll eyes:

They could go back to wherever they came from, hows that for an idea?

---

 

Well, isn't that Israel?

---

After their exodus 2000 years ago.

Man I wish I could claim the area I came from 2000 years ago to be my home and kick everyone out of there too, and if you try to come back I'll just get my big brother (who lent me his squirt gun) to tell you to stop, and what I won't tell you is that if you throw pebbles at me, I'll break yours and all the people around you (even [and probably most importantly to note] if they're not participating at all) arms.

---

No one kicked ANYONE out of israel.
There are plenty of non jews in israel, and israel has been searching for a 2 state solution for a VERY LONG TIME.

By the way, american soldiers have never fought in an israeli war.

-------
The world is only as sweet as you make it and only as terrible as you see it

---

Quote: from football at 10:56 am on Jan. 6, 2009

---

They didn't take anything, those who left Israel back in 1947 did so of their own free will.

---

I don't limit myself to 75 years of time.

---

Also, it was the United Nations, aka "the rest of the world", who decided that the Jews should be allowed to have a nation again.

---

The amount of deaths due to a decision done by ad miscordiam, ad verecundiam and radical ideals have led to a mess in the area on both sides. I don't care who thought of or supported the idea; it is a disaster.

---

Stop villainizing a group of people who you don't know anything about. Here's an idea, read up on your history instead.

---

My history dates more than the last 100 years.

tk

---

So you read the part about how Israel, was originally Israel? Weird how that worked out huh? I am amazed by how these days it is ok to be racist against Jews, and support people who want the Jewish race to be eliminated altogether, yet you same people seem to think that Hitler was bad. Why is it bad for Hitler to want to kill people simply because of their race but it isn't bad for Arabs to do the same?

---

Quote: from jakelong at 1:54 pm on Jan. 6, 2009

---

Ok good. But will they be treated as just "guests" or as PART of the country which will be created on the territory? Will they have EQUAL citizenship rights as the natives?

---

Obviously, the only way to reach a truly peaceful solution would be to grant the Israelis who were born in Israel citizenship and be treated as equals with the Palestinians, as well as grant amnesty on all sides along the same lines as what's been occurring in South Africa after the apartheid regime in the 90s and now.  

---

So when you speak of "destruction" of Israel you mean ABOLISH the Israel STATE really.

---

Basically.  I just like using words which creates vivid images.  

---

I am fine with the destruction of Zionism itself. But when you say destruction of "zionists" though do you mean  

- to kill them all
- to put them all in jail or  
- to have them considered the same way as nazis?

---

Depends.  Zionism in the state of Palestine ought to be considered treasonous (as it does advocate overthrowing any government in Palestine, installing a Jewish government, expelling / killing all non-Jews, and reforming Israel).  It shouldn't be banned outright (as in, symbols of Israel, publically expressing the better things about Israel, sympathy for the Israelis, etc. shouldn't be abolished, like Nazism is in Germany), but activities going toward that direction in attempt to get Zionism going again and making it a reality could warrant jailtime or otherwise.

---

" Obviously, the only way to reach a truly peaceful solution would be to grant the Israelis who were born in Israel citizenship and be treated as equals with the Palestinians, as well as grant amnesty on all sides along the same lines as what's been occurring in South Africa after the apartheid regime in the 90s and now.   "

You do realize that if theoretically Israel/ palestine was controlled by Hamas, that Hamas believes in Jihad and Islamic law?

The chance that jews, or any non muslim, would have equal rights is very slim under an entirely religious government, like the one they plan to establish.

"as it does advocate overthrowing any government in Palestine"

No it doesn't. It didn't plan to undermine Hamas until they completely ignored their ceasefire.

"installing a Jewish government"

Not true. While there are religious parties in the israeli government, there are also secular and muslim political parties that have say in the israeli government.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/how_govt_works.html

The way their government works is VERY DIFFERENT then the way it works in the US or the UK.

"expelling / killing all non-Jews"

Again. Not true AT ALL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

There are christians, druze, Bahaai, muslims, etc.

To make that assumption is completely ridiculous.

-------
The world is only as sweet as you make it and only as terrible as you see it

I think at least Bud2400 went a bit further into it but most other ppl just go "go back to where you came from" except they don't want them where they live.  

-------
"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

---

So you read the part about how Israel, was originally Israel? Weird how that worked out huh?

---

The spin wasn't as ethnocentric as one would think.

---

I am amazed by how these days it is ok to be racist against Jews, and support people who want the Jewish race to be eliminated altogether, yet you same people seem to think that Hitler was bad. Why is it bad for Hitler to want to kill people simply because of their race but it isn't bad for Arabs to do the same?

---

Way off buddy; Zionists =/= All Jews.  In fact, I know many Jews who do not support a Zionist state.  I don't see Hamas killing Jews in America or in Europe, it seems to be localized and for a reason.

tk

-------
"Argentum qui amat, cum argento numquam satiabitur." ~ Solomon

---

You do realize that if theoretically Israel/ palestine was controlled by Hamas, that Hamas believes in Jihad and Islamic law?

---

Of course. What makes you think that I support the Hamas simply because I oppose Israel?

Palestinian government doesn't necessarily equal Hamas. The Hamas is a direct reaction to Zionism, hence why I put the blame of that government on Israel itself.

---

The chance that jews, or any non muslim, would have equal rights is very slim under an entirely religious government, like the one they plan to establish.

---

Right, so let's keep those dirty Muslims oppressed rather than do what's right so we eradicate any reason for the Hamas existing, which means getting rid of Zionism, and Israel itself, entirely.

---

No it doesn't. It didn't plan to undermine Hamas until they completely ignored their ceasefire.

---

Are you trying to be obtuse, or do you neglect the fact that the Hamas oppose Israel's entire invasion of their homeland? They don't view just the territories Israel designates as Palestine as Palestine, but all of Israel as well, and indeed, this is a very justified reaction. Who wouldn't feel this way?

Though I will admit, the Hamas probably wouldn't be in place if it weren't for aggressive policies by Israel to keep the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip dirt poor.

---

Not true. While there are religious parties in the israeli government, there are also secular and muslim political parties that have say in the israeli government.

---

Wasn't it you yourself who was talking about how being ethnically Jewish is more than just religion (or alternatively, race)?

I'm referring to Jewish nationalism here, which is very real and many believe in it, yet I personally see as a complete fallacy.

---

Again. Not true AT ALL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel  

There are christians, druze, Bahaai, muslims, etc.  

To make that assumption is completely ridiculous.

---

Israel will keep a minority so long as it can stay a minority. If the current fertility rates continue, by 2050 the majority of Israel's population would be non-Jewish (self-proclaimed, of course). Wouldn't that be the irony of all ironies to have a majority Arab state called Israel?

Obviously Israel can't let this happen if it wishes to continue to exist in the way that it does - though what exactly it'll do about that trend and not be seen as the scourge of the world that it is, it's hard to say. This is all in line with Zionism - this is exactly what Zionism advocates, a Jewish state. It's already gotten quite a few Palestinians off of what's now Israel proper.

Though I suppose the Israeli Zionists can learn from South Africa as to how to keep the majority in check, but if I recall correctly, that didn't work out so well and I'd imagine they'll remember that quite vividly.

Post edited at 10:47 am on Jan. 7, 2009 by Bud2400

---

hey retard I was speaking not just of the security council. Just because I am not a jew-hater like you doesn't mean I like Israel either.

---

There is a difference between a Jew and a Zionist.  People don't hate Jews rather they dislike Zionism and its extremist ideology.

-------
-----
Die Abrahamitischen Tradition muss bewahrt werden. --Monsour Aristocrat

But don't forget that there ARE PLENTY of ppl who DO NOT make the difference and DO ALSO hate any secular jews from Europe (or eslewhere), not JUST zionists...

Edit: Look post below for proof of what I say in this post.

Post edited at 9:56 pm on Jan. 7, 2009 by jakelong

-------
"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

lololol jk

-------
join this group only if youre a mod

---

Quote: from football at 9:17 pm on Jan. 6, 2009

---

So you read the part about how Israel, was originally Israel? Weird how that worked out huh?

---

The spin wasn't as ethnocentric as one would think.

---

I am amazed by how these days it is ok to be racist against Jews, and support people who want the Jewish race to be eliminated altogether, yet you same people seem to think that Hitler was bad. Why is it bad for Hitler to want to kill people simply because of their race but it isn't bad for Arabs to do the same?

---

Way off buddy; Zionists =/= All Jews. In fact, I know many Jews who do not support a Zionist state. I don't see Hamas killing Jews in America or in Europe, it seems to be localized and for a reason.

tk

---

tk you are still talking about most Jews. Personally I don't see a significant difference between all Jews and most Jews. This is what I have a hard time understanding about your argument: You say that the Palestinians should have control of the land in question because "they were there first". So nobody argues about who was truly there first, obviously the Jews were. However, the Jews had been gone for forever, and a new people, the Palestinians, had established themselves there. I think we agree so far? Now I assume you would say that the Jews should never have been given the land because the Palestinians already lived there, which is a reasonable argument. But in today's world , there are essentially no Palestinians still alive who ever lived in that land, so by the same argument shouldn't the Jews be allowed to stay? I have to wonder if you and I would have both been on the opposite side of this argument back in 1947...

---

Personally I don't see a significant difference between all Jews and most Jews.

---

How do you not? Jews are a group and Zionism is a Jewish nationalist ideology. The two are clearly separate even if most members of a particular group subscribe to it, and if you don't like one form of nationalist ideology (such as that of Nazism, a nationalist ideology of Germany), it makes perfect sense to disapprove of more or less the same type of thing for the Jews. The people who put it into practice are obviously different (hence why you don't see anything in Israel on the level of Nazi Germany), but the ideology of Zionism is very similar in its goals and justifications. To dislike Zionism but not hate the Jews is essentially the same disliking white nationalism or Nazism, but not hating white people or Germans.

Post edited at 3:11 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 by Bud2400

---

tk you are still talking about most Jews. Personally I don't see a significant difference between all Jews and most Jews. This is what I have a hard time understanding about your argument: You say that the Palestinians should have control of the land in question because "they were there first". So nobody argues about who was truly there first, obviously the Jews were.

---

No because even if you were to go back to Bible times, the Jews invaded then too and quite horribly.  So no, not "obviously" everyone knows who was there first - rather, we know who the Zionists think were there first.

Trying to push the world into creating a land that was owned by others is not correct - it's something that Americans did to Native Americans and most of us (sadly not all) find that a sad part of our history because we knew we were wrong.

---

However, the Jews had been gone for forever, and a new people, the Palestinians, had established themselves there. I think we agree so far? Now I assume you would say that the Jews should never have been given the land because the Palestinians already lived there, which is a reasonable argument. But in today's world , there are essentially no Palestinians still alive who ever lived in that land, so by the same argument shouldn't the Jews be allowed to stay? I have to wonder if you and I would have both been on the opposite side of this argument back in 1947...

---

This, of course, falsely assumes only one side and falsely assumes that Zionism has existed for over 2000 years - an assumption that we'd have to question given the historical records.

Like Bud points out, Zionism is just another poison like Nazism.  It's a group of people who think they are "destined" to be somewhere (or for something), even though they are taking what doesn't belong to them.  The Nazis took innocent Jewish lives, now Zionists are taking innocent Palestinian lives.  Both are horrifying.

But I want to make it clear that I am not against Jews as not all Jews support Zionism.  Many of them point out the irony of this very fact.

tk

Post edited at 9:22 am on Jan. 10, 2009 by tkster

-------
"Argentum qui amat, cum argento numquam satiabitur." ~ Solomon

What I wonder is that is it possible that one can be for a Jewish state as well as for a Palestinian state WITHOUT going into all that "who was here first" or "who has more right to the land" and all that bullcrap.

Because as soon as we go into racial right to the land then racialism and racism are right behind it either way. But if we talk instead of simply people being able to live on an area and share it in peace and without hate then there's more ground for agreement.

-------
"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP