Black people committed half the murders in 2007 -- LiveWire Teen Forums

Quote: from jakelong at 12:00 am on Jan. 4, 2009

But the thing is that I bet he's not the only who gave social explanations to things right?

Of course not, but his explanations have been immensely popular this last century, especially since the 60s in the US in a more academic setting.

I mean just because my explanations are more on the social flavor that doesn't mean its because I believe in marzism or I am a Marzist I hope. I just came up with those explantion on my own really. Its not like I read some marxist book to do that.

I'm not saying you are. Marxist theory =/= Marxism. Most people who do refer to Marxist theory and use it to back up their explanations don't support socialism or anything along those lines. Most don't even consider their explanations fitting Marxist theory, yet much of the Marxist theory you see in our society is largely unlabelled simply due to the connotations the label brings. And believe me, it is rather prevalent, even in the US.

well the problem of course is that the possible explanation for not tipping isn't really on the same level as the possible explanation of murder

I'm not saying it is. I'm barely even comparing tipping to murder. I'm simply saying that, as far as socioeconomic class goes, it'll relate to the murder rates among races, most specifically blacks, as socioeconomic class did to tipping among races. I'm comparing the tendencies of the two. I would hypothesize that in nearly all cases, while socioeconomic factors have an effect, they do not explain everything (such as why one race would tip less, or why would race my murder more frequently) and this is one of them where the results would reflect that.

But hey, it's just a hypothesis I've drawn from previous studies. It's neither supported nor contradicted, so as of right now, it's just something left in the air until somebody looks into it.

No culture really says that murder is ok.

Oh sure some do. Does American culture not glorify killing in movies? Does American culture not tell you that at times, murder can be justified, or at least give you this impression? Are there not any songs out there which glorify killing or threatening to kill in some fashion?

Maybe if they were in some remote isolated tribes with some long tradition of tribal warfare I can understand if you pull the ritual tribal warfare line in which tribes battle each other just to prove their manhood, their claim to a turf, etc...

Honestly, these types of things aren't missing in our modern society. No need to resort to ficitonal examples of primitive tribes.

If you really want to push that though you could say that explain gangs (except that mafiosos do the exact same and italians don't have that as their culture either.)

Italians, however, are able to blend in more easily with whites than blacks are. Thus it's easier for an ethnic Italian to separate him or herself from that than perhaps a black, if we are to assume that there's some element of gangs in the culture of blacks.

Sure I do. I just haven't seen personally much outside that though (excpet hearing the old "blacks are genetically flawed" line). But sure I don't mind hearing other possible explanations.

If we see higher rates of murder, I think you'll notice higher rates of violent activity (fighting) among blacks as well.

Don't underestimate the promotion of violence in movies. Don't underestimate the promotion of violence in songs. Don't underestimate people justifying violence (whether for honor, for money, or who knows what) or viewing it in positive terms.

With this, you could incidentally see this getting applied to the greatest extreme - murder.

But without anything other than my own personal anecdotes to how blacks react to those things differently from other races, I can't say much, or even if these questions would lead you into the right direction. Could be something to look into, though.

then how can you really what comes from what really?

I think you're starting to appreciate the ambiguity in trying to find the specific causes for any social issue.

One argument some ppl often have is that poor whites don't tend to have the same murder rate as poor blacks. I think you brought that up once and I tried to think about that. But if you really look at where most poor whites tend to live (isolated rural areas and the Appalachas) and where poor blacks tend to live (inner cities and high ppl concentration areas) then its obvious you can't even really compare fairly or accuaretly

Good point.

To compare fairly you gotta compare poor white in inner cities and poor blacks in inner cities and if you find a big differnce then think ok then what happened.

Pretty much. It's yet another control for a potential study on the topic.

Personally I saw ppl of ALL race being violent and going beserk where I live. But its true that poor blacks (and latinos) often have a lot of gangs that theywill get tempted to join and whites usually go more into the skinhead mode or go beresk on their own family/employer/friends. And when you go into gangs then you kill more because thats what they do.

Getting at different ways of expressing anger, which can be cultural?

After all, from my own observations, I've noticed that blacks tend to be much more upfront and blunt than whites, and this could be a reason why violence may break out and occur among blacks more frequently than whites.

If you look at 40 years ago or more though you notice ALOT more poor whites into gangs (italians, jews, poles) and going the very violent way.

As violent as it is today?

You'd first have to get the statistics and compare the two, and if what you say is true, you'd have to look for the similarities between the two groups.

And then you'd have to bear in mind that sometimes two different things can cause the same result. And then when you consider all the different variables at play here, you're still in a mind boggling mess.

Well ronpaul and other like him regularly come up with those stats supposedly to force us to come up with explanation.

All politicians will use stats to sway you into believing what they say. Ron Paul is no different, though I respect Ron Paul because he'll get at the things other politicians are too afraid of - that is, challenging the Federal Reserve, daring to say that the US's foreign affairs in the Middle East was the primary cause of 9/11, his explanations that deregulation is not to blame for the economic crisis, etc.

People say numbers are never biased, but those ten to be the same people with an agenda. Numbers can certainly be biased. Like words, numbers can be presented in such a way that it sways you to one direction over another.

Quote: from Bud2400 at 1:26 am on Jan. 4, 2009

Oh sure some do. Does American culture not glorify killing in movies?

well ok true but not all americans murder apparently according to the stats. Only blacks and latinos right?

So why is that.

And please don't go and say again that blacks are inspired by the gang culture. If you live where I live its NOT the gang "culture" that creates the problem its the gang THEMSELVES.

Its a common suburb mistake that thinks that gangsta rap makes gangs.

The gangs were there way before the culture showed up. Usually the culture kinda a lag a few years between what you see on the shelves and what you see on the street. Don't be fooled: what is on the street came FIRST. What you see in the music and the movies shows up years after.

Of course these days theres also the downloads that speed things way up and theres a bit of a mix between the two. But if you really believe the gangs showed up AFTER what ppl saw and lived on the street you totaly misunderstood the whole thing.

Honestly, these types of things aren't missing in our modern society. No need to resort to ficitonal examples of primitive tribes.

not sure what you mean. I mean what is the MODEL of the gang warfare when ppl have been removed from the whole thing for centuries and were enslaved and tamed down as obedient servants for 150 years?

Italians, however, are able to blend in more easily with whites than blacks are.

Duh because they ARE white. They dont have a HUGE black stamp of their face that says "black" or "nonwhite".

Thus it's easier for an ethnic Italian to separate him or herself from that than perhaps a black, if we are to assume that there's some element of gangs in the culture of blacks.

I said it once and I say it again gangs are not in the culture of blacks. The culture of blacks is about respecting your mom, fearing your father, defending your brother, keeping it real, working hard.

The only part maybe that gangs bank on in the black culture (and the latino culture) is the part about defending your brother. Most guys that go into it don't really have a family. their dad is gone their mom is a hoe that sleeps around their stepdad is a junkie. So hte gang thing makes you feel that you part of something.

Fuck I know. I have at least 4 bud that went into gangs (latinos and black). I lost track of all except 1 and I try t keep that way. because the more you are around them the more you are sucked into it one way or the other. Its not just because you need money but its more the "friend of a friend" deal.

So the brother thing has some appeal maybe from that. But theres NOWHERE in the pure black culture that says you gotta kill or murder or rape or deal dope.

The gangsta rap thing showed up in 1990s. There was blacks in gangs since the 1930s at least.

If we see higher rates of murder, I think you'll notice higher rates of violent activity (fighting) among blacks as well.

Don't underestimate the promotion of violence in movies. Don't underestimate the promotion of violence in songs. Don't underestimate people justifying violence (whether for honor, for money, or who knows what) or viewing it in positive terms.

But again those may influence posh kids living in the subs NOT ppl who live EVERY DAY into a violence filled area.

Listen I was born in a regular middle class place (not rich but normal with lawns and things) and I lived there until 10. I saw some violent movies even then. It didn't do much to me. Then my ex-dad bailed out on us and my mom had no money with 3 kids and had to go one welfare for a while. Then she had to start from scratch and worked as a cleaning person andshe's been doing that since. But since we had no money we had to move to a really bad area of the city. Then I ran smack into the bad guys there and got a major concussion from it and had to learn to fight really quick just to survive.

By the time I was 11 I could do knife fights and got detentions after detention and was on the road to nowhere very quick.

Then my mom caught on the whole deal and found out about the big brother big sister thing. She signed me up and I gota big bro and other things to help me get aay from the street and stick at home. She even had me baby sit my sisters and kept tabs and made sure I would give the receipts from the library when I went there. At first I thought it was total BS. But it turns out that whole thing was pretty good for me.

because I wasn't around hanging out with the idiots and the thugs and the losers I started reading stuff on the net. Tons and tons.

I listen to rap still every day all the time even gangsta rap. But you think that influenced me to go out there hoting ppl? No.

What would make me go a shoot and fight ppl is NOT a movie or song.

its being around other ppl that are violent and vicous and doped on drugs and ready to harm me.

Don't OVER estimate the influnce of movies and songs. Those might influence some stupid ppl that have nothing else to do. But what really gets you into fights is NOT that. Trust me. I've seen my share.

What gets you into fights is when sombody says something like slur or some talk about you mother or sister or something about where you are from or something about how you dress. Its stupid words that are said to provoke an that expect a reply. Usually it works BEST when ppl are the SAME EXACT race because then they know EXACTLY the insult that gets to the other guy.

The funny part is that often ppl believe that the most friction is between 2 differnt races but thats only true for gang-related fights. In all other fights it has MORE to do with some ppl getting upset on the bus or in the street or even while driving. And then ppl just say things and then one of them has a knife or a gun and "wham" its over.

You really think its because they been listening to rap or came back from the movies and said "gee I gotta do like denzel in this movie"? They don't have time to think that. They do it because thats what goes on in the area where they come from.

If you really want to talk about culture then you gotta realize its more about the culture where we live where if you don't fight back when ppl insult you then you're a fag and you lost your honor.

But I don't know if thats a "black" thing or a latino thing more than a italian or spanish or german.

I saw Vietnamese and even Chinese in my area react that way too. But the funny thing is the latinos who DON'T live in my area are way more mellow and usually don't lose their cool (like my mentor and his friends for example and they STILL listen to rap and speak spanish and KEEP their latino culture and hang out with other latinos)

So what gives? That CAN'T be just culture or genes.

What it means to me is that you get to DECIDE yourself what you do about some situations. You can walk away from ppl who try to get a rise out of you and still keep your honor.

Usually what I do when I get upset in the real world is I just unwind on the net. Now even on the net I try to keep my cool too.

Post edited at 11:06 pm on Jan. 4, 2009 by jakelong

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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