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with every possibly difference you listed, your end conclusion was, there may be some differences, but not really. so in the end there is no seperate but equal, but only equal?

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As far as "women's rights" are concerned, I am all in favor of making sure that the efforts and achievements of women are valued on the same level as men, so long as it is put on the same scale, and no extra weight is added where it should not be. However, I also would point out that sometimes the expectations put on men have not changed much since the beginning of the 20th century, especially when it comes to how a stay-at-home husband is viewed in society. Men who do not work and take care of the kids while their wife supports the family financially still do not receive the respect and understanding they should get in a truly equalistic society. The stay-at-home dad is still viewed as an anomaly rather than as the rightful counterpart to so many women having a career. When those types of expectations and stereotypes disappear then we will be able to have real equality.

(Edited by Laurence at 10:01 pm on Oct. 22, 2005)

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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.   - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Support your peers!

The role of men and women our the result of society, which means you have a problem with cultural bias and relativisim in the topic - any indian/japanese women here? - ask them the same question they would respond differently because they are subject to different "expectations" - which mean they are "oppressed" and "liberated" in different ways; be it politically, socailly, or any other way

so if gender roles are based on the way our society operates then it stands to reason that these "roles" are enforced (or reienforced) when we our young....

I grew up being told by teachers and parents alike "big boys don't cry" and when my mother picked us up form school she gave my sister a big hug, i got a playfight (which, i enjoyed, or at least i think i did)

It didn't take me long to work i was different and treated differently from my sister  

Society is changing, now women are able to get better paid jobs, and isn't too uncommon for women to be the main bread winner out of family, therefore common sense dictaites the man should give up his job....essentially change comes through neccescity - And men are slowly changing because women are (metrosexuals anyone?), if crying my eyes of will get me a shag from a attractive women then get me an onion STAT! fuck that "big boys" shit

Politically, and regarding law however western societies are very unequal, women seem to have More rights.

-English law, when regarding custordy of children favours mothers, and on rare occasions are farthers given custody

-protection is given to women in rape cases, they are not allowed to be cross-examined....

-Domestic voilence also favours women, man hits his wife in defence....its always downplayed "he over-reacted"

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The truth is what money can be made from a lie.

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therefore common sense dictaites the man should give up his job

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Am I reading this correctly?  Common sense says that if a woman has a good job, her husband should give up his job?

That's not common sense.  That's a complete lack of any sense whatsoever.

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therefore common sense dictaites the man should give up his job

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Am I reading this correctly?  Common sense says that if a woman has a good job, her husband should give up his job?

That's not common sense.  That's a complete lack of any sense whatsoever.

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Premise 1: women earns more than you

Premise 2: you both decided that you don't want children to be raised by nannies, babysiters, etc

conclusion: - dad should stay home and look after Kids, now, tell me where the fuck is the (lack of)  sense in that?

someone has to stay home to look after them - it makes MORE sense for the Guy to stay home, provided the women has a good job (and wants to work)

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The truth is what money can be made from a lie.

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so if gender roles are based on the way our society operates then it stands to reason that these "roles" are enforced (or reienforced) when we our young....

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do you think there is any sort of natural gender role? or is it all societally determined?

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Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair,
gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your
inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet
spirit which is of great worth in God's sight

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Quote: from morning theft at 12:53 pm on Nov. 9, 2005

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therefore common sense dictaites the man should give up his job

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 Am I reading this correctly?  Common sense says that if a woman has a good job, her husband should give up his job?  

 That's not common sense.  That's a complete lack of any sense whatsoever.

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Premise 1: women earns more than you

Premise 2: you both decided that you don't want children to be raised by nannies, babysiters, etc

conclusion: - dad should stay home and look after Kids, now, tell me where the fuck is the (lack of)  sense in that?  

someone has to stay home to look after them - it makes MORE sense for the Guy to stay home, provided the women has a good job (and wants to work)

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Somehow you forgot to mention the existance of children in the first instance...

And... what exactly is wrong with the father staying home, if that's his choice?  Not seeing anything wrong with that situation, myself.

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Quote: from Blackadder at 10:19 am on Nov. 8, 2005

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 so if gender roles are based on the way our society operates then it stands to reason that these "roles" are enforced (or reienforced) when we our young....  
 

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do you think there is any sort of natural gender role? or is it all societally determined?

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Nature Vs. nurture....hmmm....

A psychologist named Holland (if memory serves) conducted a study about eating disorders he got several monotoyxic (sp) twins (100% genetically the same) and noticed that when one twin got an eating disorder in later life the other was also likely to get the same thing, however, the co-realation wasn't 100%, which means although genetics were a factor, there were other things that started these disorders.

I would say male/female roles are the same, part genetic (enough to make many (not all of course) women maternal and all wierd when they see new babies - but enviroment must also play a huge factor, otherwise all women from all cultures would be much more similair.

as a kid mum used to play fight with me, perhaps this reienforced a particular role - but, on saying that, there must of been a part of me (perhaps genetic) that prefered this type of interaction over a hug.

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 Somehow you forgot to mention the existance of children in the first instance...

And... what exactly is wrong with the father staying home, if that's his choice?  Not seeing anything wrong with that situation, myself.

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well yes, of course your going to have to take a day off work when labour kicks in.......But women have long maternity leaves (provided by laws) - while she's on that then yes it makes sense for the man to work.........

But when shes fit and well, it makes more economical sense for her to go back to work and dad quits his job.  

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The truth is what money can be made from a lie.

I consider it more of an “artificial equalization”. I think we must first entertain the question of why behavioral or cognitive tendencies relating to gender exist(<---a great topic), for instance; my parents never bought my sisters GI Joes or BB guns, just as I never got that doll house I always wanted (but didn’t really want, tehe). More of a western idea, but nonetheless, I don’t see unchallenged equality any time, ever . . .


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There was a
man
who baked
a mean flan.

And to make this a more verbose post I will say this: Having daughters makes a man more left-wing.  Does anybody agree?

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I'm a minger, you're a minger too.
So come on minger, I want to mingle with you