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Um, right. So if someone gets pregnant when they're in a loving relationship, they have to have an abortion if they can't support themselves away from the family home? That is wrong.

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~Maggot

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Quote: from Chava at 8:25 pm on June 23, 2009

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Quote: from Let Love In at 6:00 pm on June 23, 2009

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Quote: from MamaMockingbird at 6:21 am on June 23, 2009

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Quote: from Let Love In at 6:43 pm on June 21, 2009

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   I'm gonna go ahead and not waste the time to double check that, but either way, I didn't start this topic to get into technicalities about emancipation laws. In that case, I suppose if the girl was young enough when she got knocked up, there would be no option other than paying the parents rent. That situation is in the minority, though.

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You started this topic to be a judgmental, ignorant little shit.

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  Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me ignorant.

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 If you've never been in the situation then judging it does make you ignorant. You have to know something about what you're judging to make a correct and fair judgment and you know nothing about what it's like to be a teen mother. So yes, you are ignorant.

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Hey now, there's a difference between "judging" and having an opinion. I don't know what everyone's getting their panties in a twist about, here. It's not like I came in here saying, "teen momz are stoopid!!!1". In fact I haven't really said anything one way or another about teen moms overall. I'm just gonna stand by my statement: if a teen can't provide full financial support for her baby, then she has no business keeping it.

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So you should have said all parents instead of just teen parents. And I wouldn't give up a child if I couldn't fully support it. The child desreves their parents reguardless. Money is just a part of being a parent and right now even 45 year old parents are having trouble supporting their families. So should they give up their children as well?

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Enrique's (21 months) and Chase's (2 months) mommy www.myspace.com/Chaya77

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Quote: from Let Love In at 11:28 pm on June 23, 2009

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Quote: from Chava at 8:25 pm on June 23, 2009

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Quote: from Let Love In at 6:00 pm on June 23, 2009

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Quote: from MamaMockingbird at 6:21 am on June 23, 2009

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Quote: from Let Love In at 6:43 pm on June 21, 2009

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    I'm gonna go ahead and not waste the time to double check that, but either way, I didn't start this topic to get into technicalities about emancipation laws. In that case, I suppose if the girl was young enough when she got knocked up, there would be no option other than paying the parents rent. That situation is in the minority, though.

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You started this topic to be a judgmental, ignorant little shit.

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  Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me ignorant.

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  If you've never been in the situation then judging it does make you ignorant. You have to know something about what you're judging to make a correct and fair judgment and you know nothing about what it's like to be a teen mother. So yes, you are ignorant.

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 Hey now, there's a difference between "judging" and having an opinion. I don't know what everyone's getting their panties in a twist about, here. It's not like I came in here saying, "teen momz are stoopid!!!1". In fact I haven't really said anything one way or another about teen moms overall. I'm just gonna stand by my statement: if a teen can't provide full financial support for her baby, then she has no business keeping it.

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So you should have said all parents instead of just teen parents. And I wouldn't give up a child if I couldn't fully support it. The child desreves their parents reguardless. Money is just a part of being a parent and right now even 45 year old parents are having trouble supporting their families. So should they give up their children as well?

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You're trying to blow this up into some huge ethical thing, and I'm just not gonna let you. This topic is about teen mothers keeping their babies and then being unable to fully support them, even though they had other options open to them. If you'd like to talk about how the economic crisis is effecting families and child support, then I encourage you to start your own topic. There's plenty to talk about, that's for sure.

And as for your "children deserve their parents", I'd respectfully disagree. All children deserve unconditional love and a warm, safe place to call home. More often than not, an adoptive family can provide this better than a 16-year-old girl living out of her mother's basement. Please don't get me wrong; there are some wonderful teen mothers out there who work very hard to support their babies. But it's my belief that often times a mother who truly cares about the well being and future of her child will give that baby up for adoption, so it can have a good life, even if it isn't with it's birth mother.

I guess that's my whole argument, and why I'm so pro-adoption. It just seems like too many teens out there have misconceptions about raising a baby and then proceed to not take full responsibility for the care and keeping of that baby, and that makes me sad, because who knows, the kid could've been put up for adoption and had a great life with two loving parents, a big backyard to run around in, and a dog named Spot. Sometimes I think teen mothers claim that they're putting their baby first, but in actuality, they're just doing what they want instead of looking at all of their options and what would truly be right for the child.

-------
I quote John Lennon,
"I don't believe in the Beatles, I just believe in me."

You continuously go on and on about how living at home = not being financially stable for a child and worse, how it means you essentially shouldn't parent and don't deserve a child at all. And yet, when asked to prove either of those points, in the face of many many girls who have repeatdly proven that your claim is false, you haven't. You just ramble on more about how awful and undeserving such people are of their children.

So once again, why is ok for you or others who are often even older than these girls and with better educations, to live or move back home? But if you have a child it's somehow a sin?

If the mother pays her child's way 100% of the way, who cares about rent, really. Except you. She isn't having the grandparents buy diapers or baby formula.

If the grandparents really had an issue with it, don't you think they would take that up with the mother or boot her out? Since it isn't your child, your grandchild or your house, why do you really care anyway? Except to want to bitch about something that isn't even your life at all and you have no experience with?

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Holly.
Mama to Hunter Kai
Still missing you, LML. (1941-2007). ♥
"Nothing is worth more than this day."

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It costs a lot more for the State/Province to fund a child's foster-care stay than it does for a Grandparent to provide an [often] still underage parent a place to live - if you want to argue economics and cost. More often than not, the young parent staying at home is a temporary fix. Can you say that about the many thousands and thousands of children that are never adopted? Look how much it costs for the State/Province to raise an infant from 0-18. Is that really superior to having a girl stay in her mother's basement for 6 or 12 months while she graduates high school?  

You continuously go on and on about how living at home = not being financially stable for a child and worse, how it means you essentially shouldn't parent and don't deserve a child at all. And yet, when asked to prove either of those points, in the face of many many girls who have repeatdly proven that your claim is false, you haven't. You just ramble on more about how awful and undeserving such people are of their children.  

So once again, why is ok for you or others who are often even older than these girls and with better educations, to live or move back home? But if you have a child it's somehow a sin?  

If the mother pays her child's way 100% of the way, who cares about rent, really. Except you. She isn't having the grandparents buy diapers or baby formula.  

If the grandparents really had an issue with it, don't you think they would take that up with the mother or boot her out? Since it isn't your child, your grandchild or your house, why do you really care anyway? Except to want to bitch about something that isn't even your life at all and you have no experience with?

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I wasn't talking about foster care, I was talking about a full-fledged adoption through an agency kind of thing. I do realize that sometimes adoption doesn't turn out well and unfortunately these kids do get schlepped from foster home to foster home - that sucks. But I do believe that there are enough nice, loving families out there who would be excellent adoptive parents, if only a pregnant teen looks hard enough. There are plenty to come by in my neighborhood, that's for sure. There are plenty of alternatives to just dumping a kid off as a ward of the state; I know, because my mom's actually a social worker, and I'm not budging on that one.

From my end, I am willing to concede that this isn't a one-size-fits-all kind of situation. I understand that. If we go back to my original post, I was actually talking about a girl I went to school with who lives at home and mooches off her parents. That was the reason I created this topic. You guys seem to be throwing all of the exceptions at me.

That being said, I still think I have a fair point, and I'm gonna stick to my OP. What favors is a teen mom living in her parents basement doing for her kid? She can mooch off her parents her entire life, until they kick her out and she and the kid get by on foodstamps and her minimum wage job. As opposed to putting the kid up for adoption, so he/she could at least have a fighting chance. My point with that whole thing is that I think a lot of the time parents think they're doing the kid a favor by "keeping them", when they actually don't have the child's best interests at heart. For the record, I'm not singling out anybody on here, nor am I stating that they "don't deserve their child". I'm just making a valid point.

Do I think it's the worst thing in the world if a teenager lives in her mom's basement for six months, pays rent, and pays for all of the baby's stuff? No. But that's a different scenario than my OP all together. I don't think it's the greatest plan in the world either, and I think that's just where we're gonna disagree. I'll continue to stand by what I said earlier; if a teenager decides to keep her baby, then I think it's only fair that she's prepared to go out into the real world and deal with her decision.Just because I haven't experienced something personally damn sure doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it.

-------
I quote John Lennon,
"I don't believe in the Beatles, I just believe in me."

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I wasn't talking about foster care, I was talking about a full-fledged adoption through an agency kind of thing. I do realize that sometimes adoption doesn't turn out well and unfortunately these kids do get schlepped from foster home to foster home - that sucks. But I do believe that there are enough nice, loving families out there who would be excellent adoptive parents, if only a pregnant teen looks hard enough. There are plenty to come by in my neighborhood, that's for sure. There are plenty of alternatives to just dumping a kid off as a ward of the state; I know, because my mom's actually a social worker, and I'm not budging on that one.

From my end, I am willing to concede that this isn't a one-size-fits-all kind of situation. I understand that. If we go back to my original post, I was actually talking about a girl I went to school with who lives at home and mooches off her parents. That was the reason I created this topic. You guys seem to be throwing all of the exceptions at me.

That being said, I still think I have a fair point, and I'm gonna stick to my OP. What favors is a teen mom living in her parents basement doing for her kid? She can mooch off her parents her entire life, until they kick her out and she and the kid get by on foodstamps and her minimum wage job. As opposed to putting the kid up for adoption, so he/she could at least have a fighting chance. My point with that whole thing is that I think a lot of the time parents think they're doing the kid a favor by "keeping them", when they actually don't have the child's best interests at heart. For the record, I'm not singling out anybody on here, nor am I stating that they "don't deserve their child". I'm just making a valid point.

Do I think it's the worst thing in the world if a teenager lives in her mom's basement for six months, pays rent, and pays for all of the baby's stuff? No. But that's a different scenario than my OP all together. I don't think it's the greatest plan in the world either, and I think that's just where we're gonna disagree. I'll continue to stand by what I said earlier; if a teenager decides to keep her baby, then I think it's only fair that she's prepared to go out into the real world and deal with her decision.Just because I haven't experienced something personally damn sure doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it.

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So you're essentially ignoring and denying that thousands of children exist in foster care because parents bought into your idea that adoption was a wonder solution to their pregnancies?

People are arguing because, instead of simply stating that you were irritated or disagreed with this one girl's decision, you generalized and are taking her poor decisions out on all of us. Be irritated with her, not with us. We aren't her. And saying "Oh, I wasn't talking about you guys." after many many pages of "All teen mothers should ___" "Teen mothers shouln't ___" "Anyone who has a baby should ___" doesn't actually do much to convince us that you aren't an overgeneralizing, judgmental and ignorant prick with anger displacement issues.

Great, you think most teen parents are idiots and mooches. Heard it a million times before. Move on please, this is Teen Pregnancy and Parenting Support, not Bash-A-Teen-Parent.

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Holly.
Mama to Hunter Kai
Still missing you, LML. (1941-2007). ♥
"Nothing is worth more than this day."

Quit putting words in my mouth and name calling like a middle schooler.

No one has yet addressed my statement:

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if a teenager decides to keep her baby, then I think it's only fair that she's prepared to go out into the real world and deal with her decision.

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Agree/disagree?

-------
I quote John Lennon,
"I don't believe in the Beatles, I just believe in me."

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Okay, are we even looking at the same topic anymore?  

Quit putting words in my mouth and name calling like a middle schooler.

No one has yet addressed my statement:  

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if a teenager decides to keep her baby, then I think it's only fair that she's prepared to go out into the real world and deal with her decision.

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Agree/disagree?

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Disagree if it takes her a year or two to get on her feet yet she is still going to school and supporting her child in a manner that she is able then I don't see the big rush to jump into owning an apartment and trying to balance daycare, food, rent, and still buying diapers/formula. It's better for the mother and baby that she finishes high school and maybe even goes onto college.

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Enrique's (21 months) and Chase's (2 months) mommy www.myspace.com/Chaya77

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if a teenager decides to keep her baby, then I think it's only fair that she's prepared to go out into the real world and deal with her decision.

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Agree/disagree?

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And once again you completely miss the point and have yet to prove that these girls aren't 'dealing with their decisions' as multiple people have now asked that you do. And as you have ignored each time and rambled on BS about "take responsibility" "deal with it" blah blah blah.

Funny, I thought raising the child, buying 100% of their diapers, 100% of the formula/food, 100% of their toys, 100% of their bathing needs, 100% of their clothing, taking care of 100% of the paperwork, arranging 100% of the care (if they opt for it), etcetc etc was 'dealing with it'. Silly me. Thank you for coming along and educating me to the err of my ways and how I have yet to actually parent in almost 5 years because I haven't signed a rent cheque in my life. In the face of my mother changing two diapers and buying a $2 book clearly she is the far superior and more dedicated parent to my son.  

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Holly.
Mama to Hunter Kai
Still missing you, LML. (1941-2007). ♥
"Nothing is worth more than this day."

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Quote: from Let Love In at 10:48 am on June 25, 2009

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if a teenager decides to keep her baby, then I think it's only fair that she's prepared to go out into the real world and deal with her decision.

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 Agree/disagree?

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And once again you completely miss the point and have yet to prove that these girls aren't 'dealing with their decisions' as multiple people have now asked that you do. And as you have ignored each time and rambled on BS about "take responsibility" "deal with it" blah blah blah.

Funny, I thought raising the child, buying 100% of their diapers, 100% of the formula/food, 100% of their toys, 100% of their bathing needs, 100% of their clothing, taking care of 100% of the paperwork, arranging 100% of the care (if they opt for it), etcetc etc was 'dealing with it'. Silly me. Thank you for coming along and educating me to the err of my ways and how I have yet to actually parent in almost 5 years because I haven't signed a rent cheque in my life. In the face of my mother changing two diapers and buying a $2 book clearly she is the far superior and more dedicated parent to my son.

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But what I don't understand is that if a teen mother can be that self-sufficient, then why can't she just move out?

And if the reason she can't move out is because an apartment is too expensive, then she's not really very self-sufficient, is she?

-------
I quote John Lennon,
"I don't believe in the Beatles, I just believe in me."

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But what I don't understand is that if a teen mother can be that self-sufficient, then why can't she just move out?

And if the reason she can't move out is because an apartment is too expensive, then she's not really very self-sufficient, is she?

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It's called the economy and cost-of-living.

Can you afford $1500-2500 rent for a 1-2 bedroom apartment? Without utilities or other bills included?  

Personally, not even my son's 40 year old, college-educated father can. My 59 year old, university-educated mother could barely do it, without having anyone else to support. Most of the 100+ classmates that I have on my facebook who did/do not have children, many of whom are on student loans and/or have degrees, can't do it. They room in with 2-4 others at a time to make ends meet and shuffle apartments every 6-12 months. Yet you're demanding that I, with a child support, should somehow miraculously do it all on my own lest I be a poor parent?

Not everyone lives somewhere where you can get a decent apartment for $400-$600.  

Educate yourself before making ignorant statements.

Post edited at 1:21 pm on June 25, 2009 by dunebug

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Holly.
Mama to Hunter Kai
Still missing you, LML. (1941-2007). ♥
"Nothing is worth more than this day."

Living with your parents makes more sense.
You move out when you are financially stable; not because you have had a kid.
The sensible thing to do is to stay at your parents' house until you have the money to get your own.

Also, you will learn things off your parents. You will learn more things off them, than you would without them.
If I had a baby, I know I'd like it if my mother came to my house (even if I was married) and stayed for at least a week. Therefore, she could tell me things I didn't already know.
Stuff she picked up from bringing up me and my brothers.  

So it's not always a bad idea to live/have your parents around when you have a kid.

You will choose what is best for the kid and you if you have any brains. And if that is staying at home, so be it.

The girl with the two babies, probably hasn't got the money to move, she might not be responsible enough and if she's a single mum, she might not be able to cope.
So, is not it better that she stays at home?

Post edited at 1:46 pm on June 25, 2009 by Points

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Quote: from Let Love In at 1:06 pm on June 25, 2009

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But what I don't understand is that if a teen mother can be that self-sufficient, then why can't she just move out?  

And if the reason she can't move out is because an apartment is too expensive, then she's not really very self-sufficient, is she?

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It's called the economy and cost-of-living.

Can you afford $1500-2500 rent for a 1-2 bedroom apartment? Without utilities or other bills included?

Personally, not even my son's 40 year old, college-educated father can. My 59 year old, university-educated mother could barely do it, without having anyone else to support. Most of the 100+ classmates that I have on my facebook who did/do not have children, many of whom are on student loans and/or have degrees, can't do it. They room in with 2-4 others at a time to make ends meet and shuffle apartments every 6-12 months. Yet you're demanding that I, with a child support, should somehow miraculously do it all on my own lest I be a poor parent?

Not everyone lives somewhere where you can get a decent apartment for $400-$600.

Educate yourself before making ignorant statements.

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Hey now, you're making it sound like raising a child on your own can't be done, yet millions of people are doing it every day. I'm not gonna comment on the rest of your post cause I don't wanna get too personal, but I'm just gonna go ahead and tie up my viewpoint.

In my opinion, a teenage mother should not take on the task of keeping her infant if she is not able to support it financially. The economy is in rough shape right now and earning the money to pay for an apartment, food, diapers, daycare, etc would be a huge challenge, but I think that's what you sign up for when you elect to keep your child. A teenager takes on full responsibility for that child, and, consequently, has to deal with the real world and grow up quite fast. I imagine this is just the price you pay for becoming a teen parent. And that's really all I've got to say on the matter.

Are there loopholes? Sure. Differing opinions? That's fine. But the above statement is what I've been saying all along, it's the reason I started this topic, and we're just going to continue going around and around on this. So go ahead, get your last shot in, and then let's call it a day.

-------
I quote John Lennon,
"I don't believe in the Beatles, I just believe in me."