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The circumstances of this moment are the result of the circumstances one moment previously and those circumstances are, in turn, the result of the circumstances one moment previously and on and on it goes until you reach a point before your birth, a point before the formation of the Earth, and so on.

So yes, the accident on the freeway was an inevitable eventual product of circumstances before your birth.

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 :(
(that doesn't quote very well)

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So an accident that happens this afternoon was predetermined even before the universe was born?

Post edited at 2:50 pm on July 9, 2009 by Forever Angel

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"God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein
"God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking

Bohica

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More specifically, libertarian free will has to hold that our moral character, our knowledge about the world, our feelings, our thoughts, our personality and so on cannot have any influence on or causal connection with our actions whatsoever.

Does it really have to hold that these things wouldn't have any influence?  Surely it could hold that these things can limit the extent of options available to us, but that the choice of a particular option is not predetermined.  

If this was the case, we would be living in an actual nightmare where nothing we do is a result of who we are and we could not be held accountable for our actions.

Wouldn't a libertarian say something like this: that the nature of a person is to be self-determining? And therefore what we decide to do is a result of a decisions in that particular moment, which surely is more 'who we are' than variables which were determined before we were born? Isn't libertarian free will supposed to be different than just randomness?    

Luckily, our actions and decisions are a result / is influenced by who we are.

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More specifically, libertarian free will has to hold that our moral character, our knowledge about the world, our feelings, our thoughts, our personality and so on cannot have any influence on or causal connection with our actions whatsoever. If this was the case, we would be living in an actual nightmare where nothing we do is a result of who we are and we could not be held accountable for our actions. Luckily, our actions and decisions are a result / is influenced by who we are.

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Quote: from Moridin at 12:40 pm on July 9, 2009

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More specifically, libertarian free will has to hold that our moral character, our knowledge about the world, our feelings, our thoughts, our personality and so on cannot have any influence on or causal connection with our actions whatsoever. If this was the case, we would be living in an actual nightmare where nothing we do is a result of who we are and we could not be held accountable for our actions. Luckily, our actions and decisions are a result / is influenced by who we are.

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My opinion is that your 'definition' is wrong.

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Your opinion holds no weight against logical deductions.

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"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the
shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)

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Does it really have to hold that these things wouldn't have any influence? Surely it could hold that these things can limit the extent of options available to us, but that the choice of a particular option is not predetermined.

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According to the Christian apologetics J. P. Moreland, libertarian freedom means that

"no description of our desires, beliefs, character, or other aspects of our makeup and no description of the universe prior to and at the moment of our choice [...] is sufficient to entail that we did it" (pp 138-139 in "In Defense of Miracles: A Comprehensive Case for God's Action in History, 1997)

So if libertarian freedom is true, no part of us or any description of the universe can cause of influence our behavior. Your actions would effectively be random.

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Wouldn't a libertarian say something like this: that the nature of a person is to be self-determining?

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You can't have it both ways. You can't say that freedom and determinism is incompatible, then when questioned, crawl back and say that libertarian freedom is compatible with determinism.

Isn't libertarian free will supposed to be different than just randomness?

The idea is that libertarian freedom is not randomness, but this fact flows deductively from the stated premises of libertarian freedom itself.

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"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the
shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 5:31 am on July 10, 2009

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Quote: from Moridin at 12:40 pm on July 9, 2009

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More specifically, libertarian free will has to hold that our moral character, our knowledge about the world, our feelings, our thoughts, our personality and so on cannot have any influence on or causal connection with our actions whatsoever. If this was the case, we would be living in an actual nightmare where nothing we do is a result of who we are and we could not be held accountable for our actions. Luckily, our actions and decisions are a result / is influenced by who we are.

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My opinion is that your 'definition' is wrong.

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Your opinion holds no weight against logical deductions.

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Quote: from Moridin at 12:10 pm on July 10, 2009

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 5:31 am on July 10, 2009

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Quote: from Moridin at 12:40 pm on July 9, 2009

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More specifically, libertarian free will has to hold that our moral character, our knowledge about the world, our feelings, our thoughts, our personality and so on cannot have any influence on or causal connection with our actions whatsoever. If this was the case, we would be living in an actual nightmare where nothing we do is a result of who we are and we could not be held accountable for our actions. Luckily, our actions and decisions are a result / is influenced by who we are.

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My opinion is that your 'definition' is wrong.

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 Your opinion holds no weight against logical deductions.

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And what "logical deductions"? Your very first sentence is wrong. Your house of cards fall apart before you even start to build it.

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No, it does not, since I cite primary sources on some of the leading libertarian freedom supporters showing that this is true.

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"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the
shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 8:52 pm on July 10, 2009

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Quote: from Moridin at 12:10 pm on July 10, 2009

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Your opinion holds no weight against logical deductions.

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And what "logical deductions"? Your very first sentence is wrong. Your house of cards fall apart before you even start to build it.

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No, it does not, since I cite primary sources on some of the leading libertarian freedom supporters showing that this is true.

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Quote: from Moridin at 1:58 pm on July 10, 2009

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 8:52 pm on July 10, 2009

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Quote: from Moridin at 12:10 pm on July 10, 2009

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Your opinion holds no weight against logical deductions.

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And what "logical deductions"? Your very first sentence is wrong. Your house of cards fall apart before you even start to build it.

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No, it does not, since I cite primary sources on some of the leading libertarian freedom supporters showing that this is true.

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You fail to supply sources for those 'citations'. And your ability to accurately report/interpret what someone says is suspect in my mind. You often twist people's words to fit your agenda.  

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I did provide source for that citation. It is from Moreland's article in the anthology called "In Defense of Miracles: A Comprehensive Case for God's Action in History, published in 1997. It's on pages 138-139.

Do feel free to suggest an alternative interpretation to

"no description of our desires, beliefs, character, or other aspects of our makeup and no description of the universe prior to and at the moment of our choice [...] is sufficient to entail that we did it"

You can read this in its context on google books here

So it is clear that nothing in you or the facts of reality can determine or otherwise influence your actions if libertarian freedom is true.

Post edited at 12:19 pm on July 10, 2009 by Moridin

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"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the
shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)

"Their desires, beliefs or what have you may influence their choice, but free acts are not caused by prior states in the agent." (pg 138) Key words... "influence" and "caused".

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"God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein
"God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking

Bohica

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From your link...  

"Their desires, beliefs or what have you may influence their choice, but free acts are not caused by prior states in the agent." (pg 138) Key words... "influence" and "caused".

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Note the bold.

That statement is self-contradictory. If your behavior is not caused, it cannot be influenced either. If your behavior is influenced by drugs, how can it then be free?

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"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the
shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)

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"... a point before the formation of the Earth, and so on."

So an accident that happens this afternoon was predetermined even before the universe was born?

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Can you clarify your objection here? I would have thought it obvious that the "accident" is a predictable outcome of the laws of physics and the world as it stands.