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7:21 pm on July 7, 2009 | Joined: Dec. 2008 | Days Active: 222 Join to learn more about DescartesCalifornia, United States | StraightMale | Posts: 8,611 | Points: 11,488
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------- Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it. The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off Cogito Ergo Sum Stercus accidit
7:23 pm on July 7, 2009 | Joined: Dec. 2008 | Days Active: 222 Join to learn more about DescartesCalifornia, United States | StraightMale | Posts: 8,611 | Points: 11,488
Forever Angel
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Yes, I believe in free will.
------- "God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein "God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking
Bohica
9:29 pm on July 7, 2009 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 1,382 Join to learn more about Forever AngelKansas, United States | StraightFemale | Posts: 28,648 | Points: 55,646
Not sure how well I can explain this, but here is what they mean:
-libertarian Free Will - non-causal freewill
-Soft Determinism - compatibilism; Free will and Determinism
-Hard Determinism - No free will
What do you believe?
No, compatibilism is not libertarian freedom plus determinism. When compatibilists say freedom, they mean something very different from what libertarians say when they mean freedom.
I am of course a compatibilist.
What am I?
Strange question.
If you want to be rational and scientifically accurate, you ought to be a compatibilist. If you want to be consistent with your (inconsistent) religious beliefs, you ought to believe in libertarian free will.
So, which one is it?
------- "The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)
9:28 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: April 2006 | Days Active: 626 Join to learn more about MoridinSweden | AsexualMale | Posts: 12,933 | Points: 20,589
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Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:29 am on July 8, 2009
Yes, I believe in free will.
Well, what kind of free will? Libertarian or compatibilist? Saying that you believe in free will is like saying you believe in democracy. Well, which type of democracy (representative, direct etc.)?
------- "The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)
9:30 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: April 2006 | Days Active: 626 Join to learn more about MoridinSweden | AsexualMale | Posts: 12,933 | Points: 20,589
Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:29 am on July 8, 2009
Yes, I believe in free will.
Well, what kind of free will? Libertarian or compatibilist? Saying that you believe in free will is like saying you believe in democracy. Well, which type of democracy (representative, direct etc.)?
I think we've been through this before. I believe my decisions are my own to make.
------- "God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein "God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking
Bohica
9:48 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 1,382 Join to learn more about Forever AngelKansas, United States | StraightFemale | Posts: 28,648 | Points: 55,646
Moridin
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Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:48 pm on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:29 am on July 8, 2009
Yes, I believe in free will.
Well, what kind of free will? Libertarian or compatibilist? Saying that you believe in free will is like saying you believe in democracy. Well, which type of democracy (representative, direct etc.)?
I think we've been through this before. I believe my decisions are my own to make.
That's like saying you believe in the type of democracy that allows you to vote. Well, vote how? Direct, or by representative?
Maybe If I ask something like the following: Do you think that the facts of reality, your personality, the content of your moral character, you memories, your thoughts and knowledge of the world determine how you behave?
------- "The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)
9:53 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: April 2006 | Days Active: 626 Join to learn more about MoridinSweden | AsexualMale | Posts: 12,933 | Points: 20,589
Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:29 am on July 8, 2009
Yes, I believe in free will.
Well, what kind of free will? Libertarian or compatibilist? Saying that you believe in free will is like saying you believe in democracy. Well, which type of democracy (representative, direct etc.)?
I think we've been through this before. I believe my decisions are my own to make.
That's like saying you believe in the type of democracy that allows you to vote. Well, vote how? Direct, or by representative?
Maybe If I ask something like the following: Do you think that the facts of reality, your personality, the content of your moral character, you memories, your thoughts and knowledge of the world determine how you behave?
I believe in the kind of democracy that allows me the freedom of living my life as I see fit. One that does not infringe on my rights as a human being.
All of those things have something to do with how I behave. But the choices I make are still mine.
------- "God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein "God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking
Bohica
10:02 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 1,382 Join to learn more about Forever AngelKansas, United States | StraightFemale | Posts: 28,648 | Points: 55,646
Moridin
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So you don't think that the moral character of a person influences his behavior? You don't think that the knowledge that you have of the world influences a persons behavior?
------- "The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)
10:04 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: April 2006 | Days Active: 626 Join to learn more about MoridinSweden | AsexualMale | Posts: 12,933 | Points: 20,589
So you don't think that the moral character of a person influences his behavior? You don't think that the knowledge that you have of the world influences a persons behavior?
Fail.
------- "God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein "God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking
Bohica
10:07 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 1,382 Join to learn more about Forever AngelKansas, United States | StraightFemale | Posts: 28,648 | Points: 55,646
SpM
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Moridin, I wouldn't bother. Debating determinism with Forever Angel is like beating your head against a brick wall. It'll quickly degenerate into bickering over semantics, and 20 pages later you discover she's been a compatibilist all along, but won't couch it in those terms for reasons unknown.
10:12 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: Feb. 2007 | Days Active: 669 Join to learn more about SpMScotland, United Kingdom | Posts: 27,958 | Points: 39,470
If you want to be rational and scientifically accurate, you ought to be a compatibilist. If you want to be consistent with your (inconsistent) religious beliefs, you ought to believe in libertarian free will.
So, which one is it?
Libertarian free will it is then.
That questions not so strange. I don't understand the terminology or fine contours of this debate (denominational controversy about free will falls largely outside of the field of my expertise), but you do. Why shouldn't I ask you?
------- "It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen
This is the philosophy of my life.
10:13 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: Nov. 2002 | Days Active: 1,160 Join to learn more about Prince o palitiesTennessee, United States | StraightMale | Posts: 26,279 | Points: 53,771
SpM
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Prince, how do you think free will works? I ask simply because I cannot, for the life of me, understand the libertarian position.
10:16 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: Feb. 2007 | Days Active: 669 Join to learn more about SpMScotland, United Kingdom | Posts: 27,958 | Points: 39,470
Prince, how do you think free will works? I ask simply because I cannot, for the life of me, understand the libertarian position.
Like I said, I don't really understand the lines being drawn. Free will works in that we choose our own actions; no one chooses them for us.
The above may be the shortest explanation I have ever given for any belief I've ever been asked to describe. It should illustrate how foreign I feel in these waters.
------- "It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen
This is the philosophy of my life.
10:19 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: Nov. 2002 | Days Active: 1,160 Join to learn more about Prince o palitiesTennessee, United States | StraightMale | Posts: 26,279 | Points: 53,771
Moridin, I wouldn't bother. Debating determinism with Forever Angel is like beating your head against a brick wall. It'll quickly degenerate into bickering over semantics, and 20 pages later you discover she's been a compatibilist all along, but won't couch it in those terms for reasons unknown.
No. It's not about semantics. That seems to be a common dodge for a lot of people when they either use words that they don't know the meaning of or when they've assigned a meaning of their own to a word.
------- "God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein "God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking
Bohica
10:19 am on July 9, 2009 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 1,382 Join to learn more about Forever AngelKansas, United States | StraightFemale | Posts: 28,648 | Points: 55,646
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