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Quote: from anthoron at 8:52 pm on July 8, 2009

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and how/where was this sample taken? having lived in both the middle of england and the south of england, i can safely say that the south of england would probably not reflect your argument considering i've seen very few people who aren't white.

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The census is from a Christian source (Christian Research Group) on 8 May 2005 with the participation of 18,720 churches, half of the total of 37,501 known churches in England originally contacted. Statistics and figures are based on information supplied by churches on attendance figures for all services on May 2005. Estimates have been made for those who did not respond, partly on the basis that their figures would on average be similar to those who did respond, but also comparing the results with previous studies and/or published denominational figures.

Considering what we've all agreed about anecdotal evidence I don't know what you're thinking you're proving there. You may as well have said "In the relatively tiny amount of the south of England I've seen, I didn't see many white people, therefore everyone in the south's a Muslim and the rest are white Christians." And you said that having lived in the Midlands!? Surely you must know that Birmingham and Leicester both have very large asian communities, though smaller towns may be more white British. Same applies to the North considering places like Bradford, and the south with London and Slough.

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my point was that if the sample hadn't been taken accross the entire of the uk, not just small pockets, the results would be very bias since there's not an even distribution of ethnicity or religious beliefs through out the uk.

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the meaning of life / pi = 13.37
(at 4 significant figures)

...and so on...

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The truth is what money can be made from a lie.

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My point was that if the sample hadn't been taken accross the entire of the uk, not just small pockets, the results would be very bias since there's not an even distribution of ethnicity or religious beliefs through out the uk.

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Fair enough, well luckily the census was taken throughout every region of the country.

Quote: from Blackadder

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even if Islam overtakes christainity I doubt it will make any real diffence... the principles of our legal system are far too ingrained and strong for any of that sharia stuff to make an impact (with the expection of ADR remedy)

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Seperate shariah courts for Muslims were proposed, and although I think the idea only yielded little success, a compromise was reached that within our traditional judicial system a different approach could be offered for Muslims regarding things like divorce settlements, being the prime example [in which both parties have to agree to use this alternative 'Islamic' form of procedure].
I also found it sort of weird that among others, the Archbishop of Canterbury supported accomodating parts of shariah in our legal system.

A few years ago I was also interested to see we had the first few Islamic banks set up for business in Britain, Muslims apparently keen to use their style of banking here (a friend told me you can get [small] interest free loans from them because charging interest is considered immoral in Islam).

Post edited at 1:07 pm on July 9, 2009 by DonnieDarkko

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You don't want to look in hier! =}

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Quote: from anthoron at 5:02 pm on July 9, 2009

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My point was that if the sample hadn't been taken accross the entire of the uk, not just small pockets, the results would be very bias since there's not an even distribution of ethnicity or religious beliefs through out the uk.

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Fair enough, well luckily the census was taken throughout every region of the country.

Quote: from Blackadder

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even if Islam overtakes christainity I doubt it will make any real diffence... the principles of our legal system are far too ingrained and strong for any of that sharia stuff to make an impact (with the expection of ADR remedy)

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Seperate shariah courts for Muslims were proposed, and although I think the idea only yielded little success, a compromise was reached that within our traditional judicial system a different approach could be offered for Muslims regarding things like divorce settlements, being the prime example [in which both parties have to agree to use this alternative 'Islamic' form of procedure].

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Yes, as I said, ADR. http://www.infolaw.co.uk/partners/alternative_dispute_resolution.htm

This "comprimise" is nothing special [infact, to try and suggest this is a "comprimise" is ulterly absurd], lots of organizations and methods are accepted by the judial system for settling civil disputes.  

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I also found it sort of weird that among others, the Archbishop of Canterbury supported accomodating parts of shariah in our legal system.

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but in what capacity?    merely as ADR?

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A few years ago I was also interested to see we had the first few Islamic banks set up for business in Britain, Muslims apparently keen to use their style of banking here (a friend told me you can get [small] interest free loans from them because charging interest is considered immoral in Islam).

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I can only see this as a positive thing however, so long as they abide by the current standards and laws, whats the problem?  

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The truth is what money can be made from a lie.

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Yes, as I said, ADR. http://www.infolaw.co.uk/partners/alternative_dispute_resolution.htm  

This "comprimise" is nothing special [infact, to try and suggest this is a "comprimise" is ulterly absurd], lots of organizations and methods are accepted by the judial system for settling civil disputes.

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So, it was a compromise between giving them their own court based on shariah law and not doing anything. Compromise.

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but in what capacity? merely as ADR?

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I can only see this as a positive thing however, so long as they abide by the current standards and laws, whats the problem?

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Nothing's the problem!? Where did I say it was!? Christ almighty it was just a point that Islam in Britain has had an affect on our society; introducing new ideas to the way we run things, money, law to a small extent etc.

osmoticdespair -

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If its ok for the Jews to have their own divorce courts, why not the muslims too?

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trodgor1337 -

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well yeah you can pretty much say the same for religion in every country. you can't rely on polls to give any real indication of a demographic's actual varying opinions. like Erma Bombeck said, "I haven't trusted polls since I read that 62% of women had affairs during their lunch hour. I've never met a woman in my life who would give up lunch for sex."

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It's not the same for religion in every country!? That's a ludicrous statement. This wasn't in Hello magazine, it's a reliable source and survey.

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unless you're really trying to say that muslims on a whole are generally more serious about religion then us moralless christians

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In Britain, that's sort of what I'm saying. If we're judging "serious about religion" as you put it (not me, nor did I even imply Christians were 'moralless' so don't start building strawmen please), in terms of church attendence, then there has to be some sort of reason why, of the huge amount of people here that have ticked the 'Christian' box on their general census forms, only a tiny percentage of them are actually attending church (a few even contradicted themselves and put themselves as Christian, but later listed that they don't believe in [a] God). And in turn why well over 50% of people who list themselves as Muslims actually do attend the mosque and pray every day etc.

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You don't want to look in hier! =}

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If its ok for the Jews to have their own divorce courts, why not the muslims too?

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the jews are nice and quiet and don't cause any trouble.

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the meaning of life / pi = 13.37
(at 4 significant figures)

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Quote: from osmoticdespair at 10:16 pm on July 9, 2009

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If its ok for the Jews to have their own divorce courts, why not the muslims too?

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the jews are nice and quiet and don't cause any trouble.

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Quote: from anthoron at 1:43 pm on July 10, 2009

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Quote: from osmoticdespair at 10:16 pm on July 9, 2009

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If its ok for the Jews to have their own divorce courts, why not the muslims too?

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 the jews are nice and quiet and don't cause any trouble.

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So getting to use your own divorce law is a reward for being quiet?

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for fuck sake!

1) "Freedom of contract" -- people/business should be free to trade or decide matters on whatever terms they wish (within reason). In other words, the right to go abou ones affairs, without government interference.    

Of course there are plently of exceptions to this rule, it is nonetheless and important legal principle which will not be abandoned without good reason.

^ from the above logic, we can infer that, Jewish divorce courts are acceptable beacuase; (a) parties have a right-- in law-- to contract to the terms they wish. (b) Jewish divorce courts have not done anything wrong such that government must step in.

^^ and from that seems to follow, that any religious or secular service should be able to make binding descisions which will be upheld by the courts.

Basically, my point is this: the Jews dont have their own courts because we feel sorry for them, or because they are nice, or because they have lots of cash to brown nose authorities, but because a free society is one where parties are fully able to decide/negociate their contracts.

2)   As a direct result of the above principle, we have ADR
 

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The truth is what money can be made from a lie.

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So whats the problem with muslim divorce law that changes all this?

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Nothing.

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The truth is what money can be made from a lie.

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Quote: from osmoticdespair at 6:02 pm on July 10, 2009

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So whats the problem with muslim divorce law that changes all this?

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Nothing.  

 

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Quote: from Blackadder at 6:04 pm on July 10, 2009

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Quote: from osmoticdespair at 6:02 pm on July 10, 2009

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So whats the problem with muslim divorce law that changes all this?

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 Nothing.

 
 

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So why are people getting their knickers in a twist?

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probably becuase people hold the misguided belief that an introduction of sharia law will significantly alter the current legal ethos and practices we currently have in place.

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The truth is what money can be made from a lie.

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Probably becuase people hold the misguided belief that an introduction of sharia law will significantly alter the current legal ethos and practices we currently have in place.

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Plus people's immediate reaction when they hear the word 'shariah' thinking 'omg they're gonna start chopping pplz hands off!' when things like that are only a small controversy within shariah law that the media sensationalises. Same with 'Jihad'.

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You don't want to look in hier! =}