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It can be personal, in the sense that God spoke personally to Moses, that Paul personally experienced a vision of a bright light, that Peter personally saw a vision of every kind of food, that John personally saw the throne of God, etc. It can also be obvious to all as God speaking to Israel, the fire on Mt. Carmel, the Incarnation, the striking of Ananias and Sapphira, etc.

I don't know that I accept the idea that it can come in an overt manner and still be only personally revelatory though, which I think is the point you're driving at (correct me if I'm wrong).

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The former, if either.  Tradition gives us a rough framework in which to approach revelation without constituting a form of revelation in itself.

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"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

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Quote: from barnabas at 3:22 pm on July 8, 2009

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Are you implying here simply that tradition does not offer us anything that hasn't already been revealed or are you implying that there is actually something "inspired" about some documents that isnt true of others?

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The former, if either. Tradition gives us a rough framework in which to approach revelation without constituting a form of revelation in itself.

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so similar to that conversation we had once about what is revealed by God, about God, you would say that the wealth of tradition merely continues to inform us on what has already been revealed/how we have intereacted with that revelation throughout time.

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Do not abandon yourselves to despair.
We are the Easter people and hallelujah is our song.

Pope John Paul II

If neither of those are the question, then I'm lost.

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"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

Similar to that, though if I recall, that conversation was actually about whether or not truth about the ontology of God could be rooted in anything except Manifest Revelation.

-------
"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

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Quote: from barnabas at 3:48 pm on July 8, 2009

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so similar to that conversation we had once about what is revealed by God, about God, you would say that the wealth of tradition merely continues to inform us on what has already been revealed/how we have intereacted with that revelation throughout time.

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Did I say that? Wow, I'm insightful.

Similar to that, though if I recall, that conversation was actually about whether or not truth about the ontology of God could be rooted in anything except Manifest Revelation.

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yes, which is why i am comparing the two conversations. It seems entirely relevant to me to speak of what we know of God and what it can be rooted in, when speaking of what is revealed to us.

Since we both know i don't believe that God works directly in this world anymore, or at least, not in the way he did in times past, so your 3 modes of revelation seem sufficient to me, however i think that tradition needs at least a nod on the list, even if its mode of knowing is different.

-------
Do not abandon yourselves to despair.
We are the Easter people and hallelujah is our song.

Pope John Paul II

Well good.  At least I knew what was going on.  Let me say for the record that while I'm not convinced of any of these modern claims about Manifest Revelation, I try more and more to be humble when presented with them (my least pronounced virtue, you may have noticed).  I respect that I am not the deposit of all wisdom, which is why I won't say that "signs" do not exist.  If I said that before, I recant.

-------
"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

You're not accusing me of not paying appropriate respect to tradition, are you?    I am a professional surveyor of Christian tradition (it's not a lot of money, mind you, but I still have to report it on my taxes).  It does deserve a nod and a seat further up at the table than it presently receives in most evangelical circles, but it would be a mistake to put it where the Catholics do as an independent source of authority.  Like the Bible, it contains a testimony to the three forms of revelation, but unlike the Bible it is heavily tainted with other, less noble concerns.  Tradition itself is not revelation but a vessel through which other forms of revelation may be transmitted (though often unreliably).

-------
"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

---

Quote: from barnabas at 3:57 pm on July 8, 2009

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Since we both know i don't believe that God works directly in this world anymore, or at least, not in the way he did in times past, so your 3 modes of revelation seem sufficient to me, however i think that tradition needs at least a nod on the list, even if its mode of knowing is different.

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You're not accusing me of not paying appropriate respect to tradition, are you? I am a professional surveyor of Christian tradition (it's not a lot of money, mind you, but I still have to report it on my taxes). It does deserve a nod and a seat further up at the table than it presently receives in most evangelical circles, but it would be a mistake to put it where the Catholics do as an independent source of authority. Like the Bible, it contains a testimony to the three forms of revelation, but unlike the Bible it is heavily tainted with other, less noble concerns. Tradition itself is not revelation but a vessel through which other forms of revelation may be transmitted (though often unreliably).

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I would never accuse you of that, I was just saying where i fall on the spectrum. Your three seem sufficient to me, but if there was a way for me to work Wesley's 4 modes, without becoming a lover of the cultural over the biblical i would.

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Do not abandon yourselves to despair.
We are the Easter people and hallelujah is our song.

Pope John Paul II

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 3:32 pm on July 8, 2009

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Yes, that's exactly the point I'm trying to make. That's why I kinda emphasized the 'overt revelation' comment. Overt, to me, would indicate "obvious to all", but covert wouldn't exactly be the correct descriptor either. Personal would be better. I do believe in "personal" signs from God.

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Well good. At least I knew what was going on. Let me say for the record that while I'm not convinced of any of these modern claims about Manifest Revelation, I try more and more to be humble when presented with them (my least pronounced virtue, you may have noticed). I respect that I am not the deposit of all wisdom, which is why I won't say that "signs" do not exist. If I said that before, I recant.

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You could always just replace "experience" with "nature" in Wesley's categories and have your own system.

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"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

---

Quote: from barnabas at 4:08 pm on July 8, 2009

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I would never accuse you of that, I was just saying where i fall on the spectrum. Your three seem sufficient to me, but if there was a way for me to work Wesley's 4 modes, without becoming a lover of the cultural over the biblical i would.

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You could always just replace "experience" with "nature" in Wesley's categories and have your own system.

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i do like nature. Me and St. Francis, we are buds. I have been working my way through him recently, and I just am in awe, constantly, thoroughly, and completely.

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Do not abandon yourselves to despair.
We are the Easter people and hallelujah is our song.

Pope John Paul II

The other part of me wishes to side with Hegel, who says in his addition to the 36th part of The Encyclopaedia Logic, that "thinking... must move freely within itself; all the same, it must be remarked at once that the result of this free thinking agrees with the content of the Christian religion, for the Christian religion is a revelation of reason" (emphasis mine, final clause reads "da diese Offenbarung der Vernunft ist").

To talk like Hegel (who I admittedly understand poorly and with hesitancy), there is something immediate about direct revelation taken simply as a representation of divine law, and it is only through further mediation that the truth becomes clear - more directly, the true revelation is Rational Revelation, which agrees in content with Manifest Revelation.

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I wouldn't call the Earth an
"inanimate mass of rock and ore incapable of ownership."
-Knight of Cydonia