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Quote: from Aimforthehead at 5:56 pm on July 9, 2009

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Quote: from Prince o palities at 7:51 am on July 9, 2009

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Quote: from Aimforthehead at 9:05 am on July 9, 2009

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Well, in my opinion, I consider sin to be 'internal' and moral to be 'external'.  
  In a way.  
  For example things like materialism, ego, etc. would be under sin.  
  Then loving another person or positive feelings outward towards other people, would be moral.

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 This is entirely random, but what is the opposite of sin?

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 I wouldn't say there are any opposites, just that they are different choices in life.    
 Now, from a scientific standpoint. I could say there are opposites in some things. For example, love and fear.  
 Which is usually what I use to base my morals on.  

 If fear, you are focusing internally. Detached from society creating more divisions (and everyone knows, an organism at war with itself, is doomed).  
 Buy more guns get more private property encourage wars, things like that.  

 Then love, which I'm sure you need no description.  

 Oh gee. I forgot to explain why this is scientifically based.  
 Well, you see a species, or body, evolves extremely slow when it is focused on protection. You cannot grow or evolve properly when you are focused internally. Fear is really a paralysis. I'm losing all of my links >_> I'll try and find it.

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Populations evolve, not individuals.

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That's true >_>
I always found language to be a huge barrier to our understanding.  
Technically it is evolution though...

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It is evolution in the more casual "change over time" usage of the term, yes.

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"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the
shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)

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The problem only comes if you misunderstand the relationship between morality and salvation. Morality is not causal for salvation. No one is saved because they are moral. If unbelief is the state of being in which one has no hope for the remission of sin, faith is the state of possessing that hope.

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But faith and hope are almost synonymous...especially in this case.  We cannot know if we will live after our death of if such a thing as eternity exists...we hope and apply faith.  Just because you hope does not mean its so.

A theist says he/she has hope because he/she believes that there will be a remission  of sin...a non-believer knows that they will have to live with the consequences of their actions, and those actions define us as a person....but neither believe or wish for some settlement later...after this life.

Unbelief is a state of dealing with the reality of life and ultimately death.  I have a hard time understanding why people think they are so important that they will live forever.

You are right, belif and salvation have zero to do with morality...they are a card game.  

Dan Dennett, author of Breaking The Spell mentions that Christians have spent quite a bit of time and money trying to link better morality to their faith and religion...they have yet to accomplish this.  In fact, in places of higher religiosity there is more violent crime (multiple sources including the Pew Institute).  Just go check the prisons...not full of the secular are they?

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We have a new son...his name is Joshua...

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That only works if faith is the simple act of belief. It isn't. The Bible certainly doesn't present it that way.

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John does in chapter 3.

It's interesting really.  Paul obsesses about all kinds of formulas on the subject.  My theory of why the Gospels were written in the first place was to create an authority on these disputed issues...but then the evangelists did not agree either.  They were, afterall, different communities.

Was does the Bible offer on defining 'sin' and 'morality' that is not disputed within its pages?  Do you see any clear instructions or are we to exegete Jesus' pithy aphorisms?

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We have a new son...his name is Joshua...

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Yes, but now you are using a non-scientific meaning of the term evolution.

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I agree.  Evolution, per science, is not anthropologically affected but rather occurs through the mechanics of Natural Selection on gene allels.

Morality seems to be the result of living within close proximity of one another...we need rules to make that work.  Morality has no fancy nor exclusive soteriology to make it work.

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We have a new son...his name is Joshua...

You do not go to heaven based on how good we are. Every single person on Earth is a sinner. No matter what their background. Not one person is worthy or "good" enough to get into heaven without the belief in Jesus Christ as our saviour. Without Jesus' blood everyone would have eternal punishment in Hell. (including myself)

If Hitler did have a true belief in God and Jesus he never would have killed so many of God's chosen people. Its not my place to judge him tho. Thats up to God.

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You can be a non christian and be moral. What are the morals if you are not christian? That is decided compleatly on you because you have no guid line but what you think good is.

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A solipsistic view at best.  We live in a society that defines morality to me...and I it (especially as a parent).

Quote: from steath at 3:50 pm on July 9, 2009

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You do not go to heaven based on how good we are. Every single person on Earth is a sinner. No matter what their background. Not one person is worthy or "good" enough to get into heaven without the belief in Jesus Christ as our saviour. Without Jesus' blood everyone would have eternal punishment in Hell. (including myself)

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Some God.  He creates us to be doomed to eternal hell...unless we accept his ultimatum?  Somebody dying for others is not moral...this soteriology is silly at best.  

Quote: from steath at 3:50 pm on July 9, 2009

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If Hitler did have a true belief in God and Jesus he never would have killed so many of God's chosen people. Its not my place to judge him tho. Thats up to God.

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If God existed and cared for us, Hitler would not have existed at all.

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We have a new son...his name is Joshua...

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in the bible is the 10 commandments.

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Notice Emily that the first four are but throat clearing and not about moral behaviors.  This "all-inclusive list" fails to mention rape (the largest crime against women) and molestation.   Very vapid in scope.

Quote: from Emilybird at 7:56 pm on July 8, 2009

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if you disobey any of those commandments it is considered a sin. morality is just your personal opinion. whatever values you have in life. those are your morals. what you live up to. and if you have "non beliefs" then obviously sins do not apply because you dont belive in such a thing.

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My problem with this is that morality is an interaction between myself and others.  That contract is not unilateral  but bilateral.  We all, as a society, define moraltity and the zeitgeist does evolve as society becomes more complex.

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We have a new son...his name is Joshua...

God created Hitler and Hitler made his own choices. God does not interfier with free will. If he did that we would not truly be able to love God. Hitler could have changed the world with his great mind for the better but chose differently.

How do you quote? I still cant figure that out?

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God did not create us doomed. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They brought sin to us. God created everything perfect and We screwed it up. and are still screwing up the world today.

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So you, i and everyone suffer due to Adam and Eve's mistake?  Do you know that Genesis has two creation stories BTW?  If God is Omniscience (all-knowing) then he knew that would happen.

Quote: from steath at 4:07 pm on July 9, 2009

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God created Hitler and Hitler made his own choices. God does not interfier with free will.

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So he allows horrible death and suffering so as not to interfere with free will...why does free will out weigh genocide?  Is that your moral God?

Quote: from steath at 4:07 pm on July 9, 2009

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If he did that we would not truly be able to love God. Hitler could have changed the world with his great mind for the better but chose differently.

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So this is about the creator's need to be loved by his creation...is God that shallow and needy?  He wasn't sure if we were picking him so he allows us to be massacred to protect his fragile sense of being needed.  Charming.

Quote: from steath at 4:07 pm on July 9, 2009

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How do you quote? I still cant figure that out?

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Hit me on message and I will explain how to do it...

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We have a new son...his name is Joshua...

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God did not create us doomed. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They brought sin to us. God created everything perfect and We screwed it up. and are still screwing up the world today.

God created Hitler and Hitler made his own choices. God does not interfier with free will. If he did that we would not truly be able to love God. Hitler could have changed the world with his great mind for the better but chose differently.

How do you quote? I still cant figure that out?

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Not surprising coming for a bible banger.

God is a personal belief and shouldn't be used to make judgments or decisions, thats just plain old peer pressure yo

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So why did I do it? I could offer a million answers, all false.
The truth is that I'm a bad person, but that's going to change.
I'm going to change.

"So you, i and everyone suffer due to Adam and Eve's mistake? Do you know that Genesis has two creation stories BTW? If God is Omniscience (all-knowing) then he knew that would happen."

Where is the second creation story? and God knew all the outcomes. He knew that what happend would happen. God also knew all the possibilities. God knows what could have been. Do you not think God felt betrayed by us chossing somting other than our beloved creator?

"So he allows horrible death and suffering so as not to interfere with free will...why does free will out weigh genocide? Is that your moral God? "

Would God have morals at all if God compromised. That would make God human not God. How could manipulation of will be moral at all?
 

"So this is about the creator's need to be loved by his creation...is God that shallow and needy? He wasn't sure if we were picking him so he allows us to be massacred to protect his fragile sense of being needed. Charming. "

You have kids... do you make them love you or do you want them to want to love you?