Morals are your own personal sense of right and wrong and your justification of your choices

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So why did I do it? I could offer a million answers, all false.
The truth is that I'm a bad person, but that's going to change.
I'm going to change.

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Quote: from Natsy at 5:33 pm on July 8, 2009

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 11:14 pm on July 8, 2009

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Quote: from Natsy at 5:09 pm on July 8, 2009

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 6:17 pm on July 8, 2009

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Quote: from ScarletsWalk at 11:48 am on July 8, 2009

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Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009

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I think morality is just an opinion

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   I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.

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That would be because not everyone has an uncorrupted moral compass.

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  no, it's just that there are always exceptions to rules and "morals" and no one agrees on which exceptions are acceptable; killing for example. Some believe it's always wrong, others say if a person did something terrible (e.g. rape, homicide, etc) it's ok to kill them under those circumstances.    
  Your morals are different from ine and probably every single person out there.

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How about murder?

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 murder=homicide

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Yes... ? How many "moral" people would disagree that murder is wrong?

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Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009

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I think morality is just an opinion

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I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.

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I'm just saying there are always exceptions. War is murder. Yet 'holy moral' people support religious wars and so on.

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Can anyone who is not Christian be moral? What kind of bullshit question is that? You don't need to believe in some fantasy of God to be a good person, and lead a good, moral life. Non-belief is not a sin, it's called being open minded, surely that should be rewarded.

This topic is silly.

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I'm sure readers of Plato's Euthyphro would agree with you.  It's a wonder that the story of Socrates pondering this question is still read, 2300 years later.  Silly really.

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We have a new son...his name is Joshua...

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I feel as though I am stepping into a quagmire, but...

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Theist define behaviors that would separate a person from God as 'Sin.'  Can anyone list all these 'sins?'

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I can't list every sin.  I do, however, have access to the tools for determining with some degree of certainty whether or not something is a sin (as do we all).

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Is morality defined by not committing any of these 'sins?'

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Not anymore than the absence of debt makes one rich.  A better way to understand it would be to say that immorality is defined as committing sins.

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Can anyone, that is not Christian, be moral?

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In the ultimate sense, no one can be moral, Christian or otherwise.  On a more practical level, anyone can be moral, Christian or otherwise.

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Is 'non-belief' a sin?

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That is a good question, an authoritative answer for which I don't presume to have.  I tend to understand unbelief not as a sin but as the state of being in which one has no hope of the remission of sin.  Unbelief then is ultimately more hazardous than sin itself.

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This is the most intelligent response I've read on these very Forums.

Morality, as I define it, describes our behaviors in interaction with other sentient beings - whether we benefit or hurt them.  We cannot be immoral towards a rock (by our detection).

Several of the responses above probably deserve their own thread.

I especially enjoyed this quote from the Prince "Not anymore than the absence of debt makes one rich."

The root of my question comes from Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus in John 3.  To me that is the quagmire.  In verses 15 and 16 he seems to say that "belief' was all that was necessary for salvation.  I wonder about all the moral non-Christian people on this earth.  Not good enough?

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We have a new son...his name is Joshua...

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Quote: from Natsy at 12:07 am on July 9, 2009

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 I'm just saying there are always exceptions. War is murder. Yet 'holy moral' people support religious wars and so on.

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Someone calling themselves moral does not make them so.

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Sartre would agree with the above statement.  He says that we are but a resume of our deeds, not what we say about ourselves.

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We have a new son...his name is Joshua...

The problem only comes if you misunderstand the relationship between morality and salvation.  Morality is not causal for salvation.  No one is saved because they are moral.  If unbelief is the state of being in which one has no hope for the remission of sin, faith is the state of possessing that hope.

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"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

This is entirely random, but what is the opposite of sin?

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"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

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Quote: from Aimforthehead at 9:05 am on July 9, 2009

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Well, in my opinion, I consider sin to be 'internal' and moral to be 'external'.
In a way.
For example things like materialism, ego, etc. would be under sin.
Then loving another person or positive feelings outward towards other people, would be moral.

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This is entirely random, but what is the opposite of sin?

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If fear, you are focusing internally. Detached from society creating more divisions (and everyone knows, an organism at war with itself, is doomed).
Buy more guns get more private property encourage wars, things like that.

Then love, which I'm sure you need no description.

Oh gee. I forgot to explain why this is scientifically based.
Well, you see a species, or body, evolves extremely slow when it is focused on protection. You cannot grow or evolve properly when you are focused internally. Fear is really a paralysis. I'm losing all of my links >_> I'll try and find it.

Post edited at 8:01 am on July 9, 2009 by Aimforthehead

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Admiration is the furthest thing from comprehension.

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Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009

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I think morality is just an opinion

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I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.

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I love the inherent contradiction in your claim here. You hold that morality is based on opinion and majority, yet claim no moral statement has ever achieved majority, as if majority was at all relevant to the truth or falsehood of a moral proposition.  

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"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the
shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)

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Quote: from LogicandReason at 6:37 am on July 9, 2009

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The root of my question comes from Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus in John 3.  To me that is the quagmire.  In verses 15 and 16 he seems to say that "belief' was all that was necessary for salvation.  I wonder about all the moral non-Christian people on this earth.  Not good enough?

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The problem only comes if you misunderstand the relationship between morality and salvation. Morality is not causal for salvation. No one is saved because they are moral. If unbelief is the state of being in which one has no hope for the remission of sin, faith is the state of possessing that hope.

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Who are you to decide what the criteria for salvation is?

I am glad that you have understood the moral disconnect your theology has regarding ultimate salvation or normative behavior. I take it that you agree that Hitler, as a faithful Christian, has gone to heaven, whereas the around six million unfaithful Jews that where tortured and executed have ended up in hell? You are signaling that in the end, behavior does not matter, it is all good and dandy as long as you subscribe to this particular list of superstitious mythology.

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"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the
shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)

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Quote: from Prince o palities at 7:51 am on July 9, 2009

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Quote: from Aimforthehead at 9:05 am on July 9, 2009

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Well, in my opinion, I consider sin to be 'internal' and moral to be 'external'.  
 In a way.  
 For example things like materialism, ego, etc. would be under sin.  
 Then loving another person or  positive feelings outward towards other people, would be moral.

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This is entirely random, but what is the opposite of sin?

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I wouldn't say there are any opposites, just that they are different choices in life.
Now, from a scientific standpoint. I could say there are opposites in some things. For example, love and fear.
Which is usually what I use to base my morals on.

If fear, you are focusing internally. Detached from society creating more divisions (and everyone knows, an organism at war with itself, is doomed).  
Buy more guns get more private property encourage wars, things like that.

Then love, which I'm sure you need no description.

Oh gee. I forgot to explain why this is scientifically based.
Well, you see a species, or body, evolves extremely slow when it is focused on protection. You cannot grow or evolve properly when you are focused internally. Fear is really a paralysis. I'm losing all of my links >_> I'll try and find it.

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Populations evolve, not individuals.

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"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the
shoreline of wonder" (Ralph W. Sockman)

That only works if faith is the simple act of belief.  It isn't.  The Bible certainly doesn't present it that way.  

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"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.