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Taking into account that most people buy a machine from the shops with windows preloaded onto it I would like you to explain which part of windows doesn't "just work".

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Also, Windows works perfectly fine, it just sometimes takes a bit more tweaking. By saying OS X "just works", I am saying that it tries to autodetect everything (for example, networks "just work" using bonjour).

And I'm not bashing windows--I actually thing with the release of snow leopard and windows 7 that the playing field will be pretty much leveled out. OS X works seamlessly with all its hardware because support for everything is built directly into the operating system. The downside of this is that you will not be able to use as much hardware. With windows, you will be able to use more hardware, but it will be harder to get to work. You may need to scour the internet for drivers to get your computer to go on standby...

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I once heard the voice of God.
It said "Vrrrrmmmmm." Unless it was just a lawn mower.

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Quote: from pleaseremove at 5:12 am on June 29, 2009

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 Taking into account that most people buy a machine from the shops with windows preloaded onto it I would like you to explain which part of windows doesn't "just work".

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I've personally encountered many computers that are bought directly from "the shop" and don't work. The hardware is not always compatible and you often have to install your own software. For example, look at lightscribe drives on PCs. They come preinstalled on many computers and are advertised. What they don't tell you is that they are incredibly hard to use and you will have to buy extra software to be able to do that much of anything with them. To me, that doesn't constitute "just working".

Also, Windows works perfectly fine, it just sometimes takes a bit more tweaking. By saying OS X "just works", I am saying that it tries to autodetect everything (for example, networks "just work" using bonjour).

And I'm not bashing windows--I actually thing with the release of snow leopard and windows 7 that the playing field will be pretty much leveled out. OS X works seamlessly with all its hardware because support for everything is built directly into the operating system. The downside of this is that you will not be able to use as much hardware. With windows, you will be able to use more hardware, but it will be harder to get to work. You may need to scour the internet for drivers to get your computer to go on standby...

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Nope, I still don't see the difference... Networks just work? As in like they do under Windows?

I plug in a printer and yes, I don't get all it's fancy features, but I can print. The basic drivers do a fair bit. Windows Vista comes with over 6 gig of printer drivers... how much more out of the box do you want?

I have a bluetooth adapter for my machine, I plugged it in, it worked. It actually took some fairly recent patches to my Apple for that to happen under OSX.

As far as i can tell, you are saying that you think more stuff works out of the box with OSX and I have to say I disagree, I would say they are very much the same when it comes to out of the box 3rd party kit working. Of course, the benefit that windows has is that there a lot more drivers written for it so you have a lot more choice in hardware too.

As for light scribe drives, I have not heard of a machine that came with a drive and without the software... Do apple provide lightscribe software with their machines?

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Anyone who isn't confused really doesn't understand the situation
http://craigk.org/pictures/
Can you work out the code?

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Nope, I still don't see the difference... Networks just work? As in like they do under Windows?

I plug in a printer and yes, I don't get all it's fancy features, but I can print. The basic drivers do a fair bit. Windows Vista comes with over 6 gig of printer drivers... how much more out of the box do you want?

I have a bluetooth adapter for my machine, I plugged it in, it worked. It actually took some fairly recent patches to my Apple for that to happen under OSX.

As far as i can tell, you are saying that you think more stuff works out of the box with OSX and I have to say I disagree, I would say they are very much the same when it comes to out of the box 3rd party kit working. Of course, the benefit that windows has is that there a lot more drivers written for it so you have a lot more choice in hardware too.

As for light scribe drives, I have not heard of a machine that came with a drive and without the software... Do apple provide lightscribe software with their machines?

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Apple doesn't have lightscribe drives, so they don't ship software with them. That's what I'm saying--Apple limits the types of hardware you can get (you can't get a lightscribe drive), but they provide really good support for every piece of hardware in the system.

Even if a computer works fine when you buy it from the store, most of the recovery cds don't include drivers (I don't know why, it is really frustrating, and I am really mad at Gateway right now, but it's true). If something ever happens, it's a pain to get it running again.

See this.

Also, I'm just speaking from experience. When I have spent countless hours getting something to work in windows, it just works right away in os x (on a hackintosh at that). Neither one is better than the other, IMO--they are just different. Windows can't "just work" like OS X does and OS X can't have as much compatibility and portability as Windows without having windows' pitfalls.

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I once heard the voice of God.
It said "Vrrrrmmmmm." Unless it was just a lawn mower.

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Quote: from pleaseremove at 3:33 am on June 30, 2009

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 Nope, I still don't see the difference... Networks just work? As in like they do under Windows?  

 I plug in a printer and yes, I don't get all it's fancy features, but I can print. The basic drivers do a fair bit. Windows Vista comes with over 6 gig of printer drivers... how much more out of the box do you want?  

 I have a bluetooth adapter for my machine, I plugged it in, it worked. It actually took some fairly recent patches to my Apple for that to happen under OSX.  

 As far as i can tell, you are saying that you think more stuff works out of the box with OSX and I have to say I disagree, I would say they are very much the same when it comes to out of the box 3rd party kit working. Of course, the benefit that windows has is that there a lot more drivers written for it so you have a lot more choice in hardware too.  

 As for light scribe drives, I have not heard of a machine that came with a drive and without the software... Do apple provide lightscribe software with their machines?

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The problem with windows is that there are so many drivers that the standard ones just don't work. I have spent countless hours scouring the internet, trying to find the perfect driver (i.e. one that works) so I can use my computer. Usually they're really hard to find.

Apple doesn't have lightscribe drives, so they don't ship software with them. That's what I'm saying--Apple limits the types of hardware you can get (you can't get a lightscribe drive), but they provide really good support for every piece of hardware in the system.

Even if a computer works fine when you buy it from the store, most of the recovery cds don't include drivers (I don't know why, it is really frustrating, and I am really mad at Gateway right now, but it's true). If something ever happens, it's a pain to get it running again.

See this.

Also, I'm just speaking from experience. When I have spent countless hours getting something to work in windows, it just works right away in os x (on a hackintosh at that). Neither one is better than the other, IMO--they are just different. Windows can't "just work" like OS X does and OS X can't have as much compatibility and portability as Windows without having windows' pitfalls.

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Firstly, having read that article you linked to I would love to know what he was doing because some of that isn't even possible. If you are short a codec it will tell you this, take you to a help page and then give you details to download it. Myself I don't see this happen very often because I download a codec pack on day one to ensure I can play anything, but I have done this many times on other peoples machines and it is painfully easy.

I can think of one device in the last 5 years that I had to go around hunting for drivers for, and it was an old non standard bluetooth device. I have since replaced it because it never worked on my Mac. The one I replaced it with worked fine first time under both Windows and the Mac.

I had to install printer drivers once, but you know, I had to do that on the Mac too... so in short, meh.

To come back to that article you linked to for a moment, I agree that there was clearly some crappy software he was talking about and I agree this is one hell of a pain. But you will always end up with crappy software, usually from companies that don't really know how to write it, they just spit it out with their products. I find the built in tools to do pretty much everything you need when it comes to software that comes with devices (so music playing and organising, picture management etc).

I would also say that he was comparing completely different spec machines, some of those tasks just can't take that long. As for anti virus, well, Norton and McAfee are both piles of shit, have been for years. I find Kaspersky does me just fine.

Oh, I loved his comment about how if you were about to install a fake flash programme that contained a virus all windows does is ask you if you are sure etc... and then he bitches that they could do more. Firstly, no they could not do more, short of scanning the file with anti virus (which they are not allowed to include, but have started making their own version of). Secondly, this is exactly what the Mac does...

Finally, I have not seen a recovery CD or partition that did not come with the drivers...

As a side note based on my experiences with both OS's having owned and fixed both for a very long time I would actually say that they have a similar number of crashes and faults. As often as you might have a crappy bit of software for Windows you don't even get that software for the Mac. Same for the hardware.

I saw a talk by someone not that long ago who was complaining about how he tried to install something on his mac and it kept coming up with a fairly useless error message. He want on-line and peoples answer was your doing it wrong. When a Mac goes wrong people blame the user, when a PC goes wrong people blame Windows. I have had the same thing happen to me several times.

Once when I was using iTunes and it crashed and I explained to people that is crashed and people told me I must have been doing it wrong. To this day I don't know how I managed to use such an "easy to use and intuitive system" in such a way it crashed...

The other example was when I wrote a blog entry about how when connecting to a wireless network i got the error "see administrator". I got linked to from some fanboy site and got pages and pages of comment. It took a considerable number of comments before I got anything constructive that could be classed as help. As it happens none of them were much use and a friend of mine who is a big Windows user and part time Unix junky figured it out.

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Anyone who isn't confused really doesn't understand the situation
http://craigk.org/pictures/
Can you work out the code?