---

---

The genetic clusters just shows how CLOSE some groups are to each other
It is a RELATIVE seperation NOT an ABSOLUTE one

Do you even understand the meaning of abolute vs relative? Apparently not.

---

That's now what I'm saying.

---

---

There's no possible way you can expect these groups to cluster together genetically.

---

---

Quote: from Charolastra at 2:04 am on June 28, 2009

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Race doesn't exist. It's a social construct, but your unwillingness to respond is probably not unreasonable, seeing as how you can't defend your case either way.  

 People think I'm white, I'm of mixed origin.

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Race does exist, and it's a valid scientific construct.
You're just a nihilist.

Who gives two shits of others think you're White?
What does that mean?

 
I can't defend my case? How?

---

Dude. Why does race matter so much to you?
I would appreciate a straight forward, honest answer, because I just don't get it.

I mean who the fuck really cares? We'd be better off as a people if we just forgot about race altogether. I know you like diversity, but diversity means shit if you don't diversify. That is to say, there is no benefit from having diverse races if no one inter-breeds. Forgetting that point for a moment:

I understand that you like finding out the little intricacies that make each "race" different, but do you realize how silly it really is? So you've found that whites have scilliasopolactic-5 in their genome and blacks have number 3, who the fuck cares?
1: Whose to say ALL blacks have number 3 and ALL whites have number 5? If they are not absolute, then they mean shit.
2: ONE gene, fuck, even TEN little differences don't make up a fly's shit worth of difference.

/rant

-------
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

---

Because you don't understand the differnce between RELATIVE and ABSOLUTE yeah we got that.

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Even if nobody felt like putting names to races, classifying people as races, or anything like that.
It wouldn't make race any less real than it is now.

---

Clustering is just a measure of RELATIVE closeness.

---

That doesn't mean race isn't an absolutely true phenomenon.

It means that the classifications systems are arbitrary, but who the fuck denies that? Every classification system is arbitrary.

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

---

Dude. Why does race matter so much to you?
I would appreciate a straight forward, honest answer, because I just don't get it.

---

---

I mean who the fuck really cares? We'd be better off as a people if we just forgot about race altogether. I know you like diversity, but diversity means shit if you don't diversify. That is to say, there is no benefit from having diverse races if no one inter-breeds.

---

---

Forgetting that point for a moment:

I understand that you like finding out the little intricacies that make each "race" different, but do you realize how silly it really is? So you've found that whites have scilliasopolactic-5 in their genome and blacks have number 3, who the fuck cares?
1: Whose to say ALL blacks have number 3 and ALL whites have number 5? If they are not absolute, then they mean shit.
2: ONE gene, fuck, even TEN little differences don't make up a fly's shit worth of difference.

/rant

---

The reason you're denouncing race is because you don't know what it is.

There is ample evidence to suggest there is more to race than outside appearance.
Perhaps if it wasn't tabooed, we'd have more studies to support the belief that there are some intellectual differences, but there is not enough to support either side at the moment, one side being wrongly labeled "Racist" probably out of fear from the other.

Perhaps you don't think they mean anything, but what makes you right?

Perhaps all humans have x and all chimps have y.

Why can't we all live peacefully in the same communities? I always wanted a chimpanzee neighbor.

And before you say race isn't species, think again. Racial classifications are just as arbitrary as all other species classifications.

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

---

I don't think it matters as much as you think I do. People who do and are TRULY obsessed try to deny it's existence and blame the failure of certain groups on this "Social construct" they wrongfully call it.

---

Alright. I'm with you there. But you can't deny that you are pretty damn obsessed with race. It's not a bad thing, really. I fully understand that the subject is a real curiosity of yours and you spend much of your time on the subject. I think that is admirable, really. I only question whether or not it is really worth it.

Really: Why is race such a big deal?

---

We would be better off, in my opinion, if we agreed that race exists, and cherished the beautiful races of man and believed each race is unique, beautiful, and worthy of existence.
Man, if everyone thought that, there would be no such thing as racial genocide.

---

True. But neither would racial genocide exist if there were no races to speak of--which is to say, if we all agreed that no races existed.

I think the diversity among humans is wonderful and beautiful, but I deny the importance of race--note: not the existence.

---

There is not one gene for race. There isn't ten.

The reason you're denouncing race is because you don't know what it is.

There is ample evidence to suggest there is more to race than outside appearance.
Perhaps if it wasn't tabooed, we'd have more studies to support the belief that there are some intellectual differences, but there is not enough to support either side at the moment, one side being wrongly labeled "Racist" probably out of fear from the other.

---

Small genetic differences are not enough to distinguish groups of people from others. There are OBVIOUSLY difference among people from area X and area Y. What significance does that difference hold?

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Why can't we all live peacefully in the same communities? I always wanted a chimpanzee neighbor.

---

I'm sure you recognize the hyperbole in your post, so I'll not reply for the time being.

Post edited at 7:27 pm on July 5, 2009 by Event Horizon

-------
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

---

Alright. I'm with you there. But you can't deny that you are pretty damn obsessed with race. It's not a bad thing, really. I fully understand that the subject is a real curiosity of yours and you spend much of your time on the subject. I think that is admirable, really. I only question whether or not it is really worth it.

Really: Why is race such a big deal?

---

I don't think it's as big a deal as you probably think I do.

---

True. But neither would racial genocide exist if there were no races to speak of--which is to say, if we all agreed that no races existed.

I think the diversity among humans is wonderful and beautiful, but I deny the importance of race--note: not the existence.

---

We are told it's "Racist" to prefer to be around you own kind, and it isn't.

How important race is you must agree is an opinion, and you must also agree that anyone trying to put any importance on it is often deemed "Racist" by the media and vilified.

Science needs to answer the question once and for all, and it's "Racist" to attempt to do so in many cases.

---

Small genetic differences are not enough to distinguish groups of people from others. There are OBVIOUSLY difference among people from area X and area Y. What significance does that difference hold?

---

What significance does it have?
That's an opinion, isn't it?

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

---

I'm not obsessed.
You don't know anything about me, really.

I don't think it's as big a deal as you probably think I do.

---

True. While it is premature of me to make these kind of claims about your personality in general, they are certainly true of your LW personality. I've rarely seen a post by you which has not, directly or indirectly, referred to race in some way.

---

We can't truly forget about race, as people innately go towards people they are more similar to. Socially, we can try to alter this, but why?

We are told it's "Racist" to prefer to be around you own kind, and it isn't.

---

But is IS silly. There is no reason to prefer your own "kind" because you are no more similar to your own "race" as you are to any other. The differences lie in culture and geography, not in genes and color.

---

How important race is you must agree is an opinion, and you must also agree that anyone trying to put any importance on it is often deemed "Racist" by the media and vilified.

Science needs to answer the question once and for all, and it's "Racist" to attempt to do so in many cases.

---

My point is that race means shit. One can be 100% saudi arabian and be raised in a white community and she will act as white as anyone else. Our personal nature IS nurture, so there is no reason to bring race into the equation.

Yes, races exist. But I disagree that they are of any importance.

---

There are large genetic differences that you can easily use to distinguish groups of humans from others.
It's obvious, and we all know it.

What significance does it have?
That's an opinion, isn't it?

---

Name ONE genetic difference between two races that has ANY real significance. I'm not an expert, and I am open to being proven wrong, but I doubt that there exists any REAL differences among the races besides physical discrepancies.

-------
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.   --Isaac Asimov

---

Even if nobody felt like putting names to races, classifying people as races, or anything like that.
It wouldn't make race any less real than it is now.

---

---

Of course, so what?

---

---

That doesn't mean race isn't an absolutely true phenomenon.

---

---

It means that the classifications systems are arbitrary, but who the fuck denies that? Every classification system is arbitrary.

---

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Race is a DIVISION, a SEPERATIOn and a CLASSIFICATION method. If the method isn't clear neither is the definition.

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The classification scheme - such as the 5 race scheme - is just that, a classification scheme.

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So it isn't absolute.

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Do you have some flaws to point out in the 5-race scheme? Be specific, Jake.

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Race isn't a phenomenon.

---

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So race is arbitrary. NOT absolute.  

---

You can easily say "Species is arbitrary. Not absolute" if you're going to play that game.
The laws and restrictions we add for ANY classification is PURELY arbitrary.

So if you're playing it that way, you're pointing out the obvious flaws in ALL classification systems.

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

---

Race is populations of humans separateable from others by genetics and/or morphological features.

---

---

The classification scheme - such as the 5 race scheme - is just that, a classification scheme.

---

---

Do you have some flaws to point out in the 5-race scheme? Be specific, Jake.

---

---

Check the definition and rethink your post, Jake.

---

Couldn't find anything about "phenomenon" in it

---

race2  /reɪs/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [reys]  Show IPA
-noun 1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2. a population so related.
3. Anthropology. a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.  
5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.  
6. the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.  
7. Zoology. a variety; subspecies.
8. a natural kind of living creature: the race of fishes.  
9. any group, class, or kind, esp. of persons: Journalists are an interesting race.  
10. the characteristic taste or flavor of wine.

---

---

The classification systems are, yet they are supported by years of study in anthropology and genetic research, they are known by all scientists of the field, and it's the best we have.

---

---

You can easily say "Species is arbitrary. Not absolute" if you're going to play that game.

---

---

So if you're playing it that way, you're pointing out the obvious flaws in ALL classification systems.

---

---

If the seperation isn't abosulte neither is race.

---

Just as lions are absolutely a different species than a catfish.

But no classification system of living organisms is perfect, thus by your standards, species is not absolute.

---

Which isn't absolute.

---

---

I've already said many times how blacks  can be confused as whites and vice versa. Considering everyobdy's defnition is different according to their culture thats a pretty big flaw.

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But, Jake, show me a Negro and White man - that are not mixed at all, and see if I mistake them.

I really don't think it's possible.

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I checked it kidd
Couldn't find anything about "phenomenon" in it

---

---

They are known but not agreed upon and not ABSOLUTE.

---

---

Species are more well defined than human races. But they are not absolute no.

---

Do you agree that a bird and a fly are different species? Alright, then species absolutely exists.

The classification system isn't perfect, thus it is not absolute.

This is the difference.

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Classifcations are not absolute no. What made you think they were. Classifications are means o making relative comparisons. There are degrees and different levels of certainty. But no these types of things are not absolute, Kidd.

---

But I will say that our racial classification system is very accurate (maybe not 100%), very supported by genetics and morphological features (Specifically craniofacial morphology), and much more.

It's the best we have, and it counts for something.

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

---

These are the extremes.
These groups are absolutely different races.

---

---

Just as lions are absolutely a different species than a catfish.

---

---

But no classification system of living organisms is perfect, thus by your standards, species is not absolute.

---

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I didn't say it was.

---

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Only mixed people can ever be confused, and they have to be majority one race.

---

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But, Jake, show me a Negro and White man - that are not mixed at all, and see if I mistake them.

---

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I meant look up the word "Phenomenon"

---

---

The first claim is conjecture, and only true for certain examples.

---

---

The second is still wrong.
Species are absolutely real - but the classification system isn't.

---

Intermediate species do exists among species. But there are not found in large numbers because specoes which are more adapted to a certain enfironment have survived better over time.

---

Do you agree that a bird and a fly are different species? Alright, then species absolutely exists.

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The bird and the fly DO EXIST absolutely. But first they are in a different FAMILY which is subdivided into different GENUS whcu are subdivided into differnt species.

Even Darwin admitted that even if the species could be found with very different and distinct traits there existed also intermediate forms. But those have not survived well over the generations because of the environment

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  Let us take a simple case: in travelling from north to south over a continent, we generally meet at successive intervals with closely allied or representative species, evidently filling nearly the same place in the natural economy of the land.

These representative species often meet and interlock; and as the one becomes rarer and rarer, the other becomes more and more frequent, till the one replaces the other. But if we compare these species where they intermingle, they are generally as absolutely distinct from each other in every detail of structure as are specimens taken from the metropolis inhabited by each.

By my theory these allied species have descended from a common parent; and during the process of modification, each has become adapted to the conditions of life of its own region, and has supplanted and exterminated its original parent and all the transitional varieties between its past and present states.

---

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter6.html

So they DID exist but have NOT survived well. .

---

But I will say that our racial classification system is very accurate (maybe not 100%), very supported by genetics and morphological features (Specifically craniofacial morphology), and much more.

---

Most scientists do not even agree on what really characterizes races.

UNLIKE species and genus we do not have consistent pieces of info that ABSOLUTELY tell us what and how the different races should be defined.

-------
"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

Racial classification systems are not absolute.
Nobody ever said they were.

Race is an absolutely real phenomenon.
This is fact. To claim it isn't means that race doesn't exist.

There is a difference between race and racial classification system.

You claim species and race aren't the same, nor did I try to claim they were. That's your fallacious argument.
Species is similar to race, on a larger scale.
Actually, people seem to say "The human race" so I guess they try to pass it off as synonymous with species.
Nevertheless, the comparison wasn't wrong.

Nobody is going to say species doesn't exist, because some species, such as my example of lions and fish, are so different that they must be classified separately.

This is similar to a German man and a Mongolian. It's hard enough to believe they are in the same species they're so different - but we know they will be classified in different races.

But some examples aren't so easy.

The domestic dog and the wolf - are they a different species or the same? Scientists are debating this issue all the time.

What about Ethiopians? Are they Caucasoid or Negroid? We have people on both sides of the argument.

You claim Abs is "Majority" White yet often confused for "Latino"
The reason this argument is faulty is because:
-Abs is mixed, maybe not 1/2 and 1/2, but he is
-"Latino" is not a race

Therefore, Abs is not an unmixed individual that is often mistaken for another race.

You didn't take up my challenge - why?
Asian is not a race. Asian is a person from Asia, which many races inhabit.
Middle Eastern is not a race either, and they often have White admixture. You could argue Irano-Afgan people are originally White, though have mixed with Semitid elements and Indid in some cases (Like the Iranian president).

A Phenomenon is "a fact, occurrence, or circumstance observed or observable"
Race is a fact that you can damn well observe. Take a flight to the interior of Africa, then go to Japan, and finally fly yourself over to a portion of Europe with no immigrants.

Sure, you may see some groups along your journey that look like they could fall closer to two of the groups, but intermediates hardly prove race isn't fact.

You claim race doesn't exist absolutely - which is actually saying "Race may or may not exist."
You are aware of this, Jake?

You are aware you're saying race may not exist, when we have such perfect examples such as Bantus, Gauls, and Japanese - where they look to be whole different species?

Jake, you can't seem to see the difference between "Species" and "Species classification"
A specie is just "a class of individuals having some common characteristics or qualities; distinct sort or kind."

Are you saying that a worm isn't distinct from an eagle? All cats don't have common characteristics?

You're a fool if you think such.

But the classificaiton systems aren't "Absolute" nor is any classification system, which is why your whole argument is bogus.

Jake, the scientists that agree races exists tend to use the five race scheme, or at least three of them since it's quite rare for them to see Australoids or Capoids.

Again, show me a better classificaition system.

And, no, I told you how scientists debate some species - such as wolves and dogs - and many for birds.

The main thing is - Humans are the dominant life form on the planet. We study other animals to actually learn more about ourselves. We have gone into our history, 1000's of times more in-depth, than any other living organism.

To think that we should put other living things at the same standard as us is quite foolish.

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

---

Jake, you are just repeating the same thing over and over again.

---

---

Race is an absolutely real phenomenon.

---

The classifcation of these features as a race is just a classification.

---

You claim species and race aren't the same, nor did I try to claim they were. That's your fallacious argument.

---

---

Species is similar to race, on a larger scale.

---

---

Actually, people seem to say "The human race" so I guess they try to pass it off as synonymous with species.

---

---

Nevertheless, the comparison wasn't wrong.

---

---

Nobody is going to say species doesn't exist

---

Race has some traits but many of them have more over lap than you think.

I posted a report to you showing that in the US differences between whites and blacks were GREATER than those btween whites and blacks in Brazil and other part of the Americas. Why is that? Because whites and blacks have segregated for many generations. Rcaes have appeared because of geographical and later political segregation. But the diffences are NOT AS GREAT as those between species.

---

because some species, such as my example of lions and fish, are so different that they must be classified separately.

---

---

This is similar to a German man and a Mongolian. It's hard enough to believe they are in the same species they're so different - but we know they will be classified in different races.

---

The "differences" oyou speak about are totally personal opinion.

---

The domestic dog and the wolf - are they a different species or the same? Scientists are debating this issue all the time.

---

---

What about Ethiopians? Are they Caucasoid or Negroid? We have people on both sides of the argument.

---

---

You claim Abs is "Majority" White yet often confused for "Latino"
The reason this argument is faulty is because:
-Abs is mixed, maybe not 1/2 and 1/2, but he is
-"Latino" is not a race

---

If you don't believe 7/8 > 1/2 go back to 6th grade.

2. People confuse him for "latino" = they belive he is of mexican or latin american ancestry. He is not.
It was pretty obvious what I meant

3. You use the term "majority white" for anyone more than 1/2 white. Are you saying "majority white" does not exist?

---

Therefore, Abs is not an unmixed individual that is often mistaken for another race.

---

---

You didn't take up my challenge - why?

---

You claim "The classifcation of these features as a race is just a classification."

I AGREE!

Now stop being so brass and understand the fucking concept, Jake.

Do not confuse racial classifications with race.

Do you agree that there are human races? If so, then it's an absolutely true phenomenon.
If not, you're an idiot that denies the obvious.

Classification systems aren't even necessary for race to exist.

Species existed BEFORE humans classified them - and even before humans existed.

I never claimed species and race was the same - I'm pointing out that they both have classification systems and neither are absolute.

Human is a species, Jake.
All species are inside of a genus, family, phylum, and whatever else.

Species have well defined traits? So do races!

Many traits for species overlap too!

The Brazil link was quite irrelevant, and White and Black Brazilians are more mixed than Whites and Blacks in the USA.

Also it said the only difference they could find was a trait for skin color.

Jake, are you telling me that these two men aren't incredibly different and there is nothing to support classifying them in different human subspecies?

There's no reason to put these two men in a different racial category?

Why are humans and chimps in different genus' Jake?
"They breathe similarly. They have the same number of arms, legs."

They are so similar.

Chimpanzees are HUMAN!

To enjoy cold weather is an opinion and has no genetic or morphological basis. It has nothing to do with classification of life.

Yes, I know Abs is mostly White - though he is still mixed.
He's mixed by any logical measure.

Remember, I said:
"Only mixed people can ever be confused, and they have to be majority one race."

Abs is mixed, and he is confused for being something other than White - and he isn't.

So what if people confuse him for Mexican or Latin American ancestry? He might not be, but what does that have to do with it?
People from Latin American or Mexico can be White.
There are White Mexicans.
There are also Amerind Mexicans.

I do think majority White exists - but I NEVER said majority White people were White (Unless 95%) and I NEVER said anything to suggest that they should easily be classified as White.

The first instance of "Majority" in this thread is:

---

Only mixed people can ever be confused, and they have to be majority one race.
But, Jake, show me a Negro and White man - that are not mixed at all, and see if I mistake them.

I really don't think it's possible.

---

My challenge was to find two racially unmixed people - according to the 5-race scheme, which we are using in this thread - and see if I mistake them.

You don't have time to read everything I type, but you sure as hell have time to split single sentences into 5 quotes.


-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"