LiveWire Network Peer Answers Peer Support Teen Forums Tech Forums College Forums 485 users online 241758 members 1036 active today Advertise Here Sign In
TeenCollegeTechPhotos | Quizzes | LiveSecret | Memberlist | Dictionary | News | FAQ
Member Spotlight
DUSTFINGER
Music: JACK WHITE
Mood: Happy
You have 1 new message.
Emergency Help
Until you sign up you can't do much. Yes, it's free.

Sign Up Now
Membername:
Password:
Already have an account?
Invite Friends
Active Members
Groups
Contests
Moderators
6 online / 18 MPM
Fresh Topics
  LiveWire / Teen Forums / The Intellectual Forum / Viewing Topic

Electrons and Atoms
Why don't electrons just fall into atom cores?
Replies: 16Last Post Feb. 20 12:10pm by theirishbiatch
Welcome to LiveWire!
We're Stronger Together.
Join the Community
Pages: 1 2  Next » Email Print Favorite
( MunchMan )


Dairy Product Addict
Reply
So I have been thinking this lately...  Why do electrons spin around an atom core?  Of course it is because of attraction, but why do they spin around it, instead of going straight into the atom?  AFAIK They are in a perfect circle, not an orbit so shouldn't they be just falling into it?  I learned it has something to do with the fact that energy comes in packets, like 5ev or 10ev, but nothing in between. so they cant be anywhere, just in certain orbitals, or energy levels.  Is this a form of natural quantum mechanics or what?  

"if electrons and protons were the size of bowling balls, we'd expect them to slam into each other. But very small particles do some very weird things... one of which is, they never stop moving even in response to a totally attractive force which would otherwise just bring them slamming together."

So what's up with this?  Do any chemists and physicists know the answer? Has anyone else here wondered about this?

-------
Technical Talk and Discussions


1:12 pm on Jan. 31, 2010 | Joined: Oct. 2009 | Days Active: 42
Join to learn more about MunchMan North Dakota, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 275 | Points: 1,064
LiveWire Humor
sertrbl


Guru

Patron
Reply
Well, it's the same reason the moon doesn't just crash into the earth... kind of.
because it's traveling so fast, the attraction simply changes the direction of the particle instead of pulling it directly.

-------
Trust me, I'm a scientist.

1:14 pm on Jan. 31, 2010 | Joined: Oct. 2009 | Days Active: 223
Join to learn more about sertrbl Ohio, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 10,921 | Points: 20,305
( MunchMan )


Dairy Product Addict
Reply
Quote: from sertrbl at 1:14 pm on Jan. 31, 2010

Well, it's the same reason the moon doesn't just crash into the earth... kind of.
because it's traveling so fast, the attraction simply changes the direction of the particle instead of pulling it directly.

Yes, but I want to know more in depth. Like, where does this energy of the electrons come from? and why don't other Atoms pull them in? What keeps them stable?

-------
Technical Talk and Discussions


1:18 pm on Jan. 31, 2010 | Joined: Oct. 2009 | Days Active: 42
Join to learn more about MunchMan North Dakota, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 275 | Points: 1,064
Skifox


Enlightened One

Patron
Reply
Centripetal force, is it not?

Like when you swing a ball around on a piece of string, it goes as far as the string will stretch but wont fall in until you stop swinging it.


1:23 pm on Jan. 31, 2010 | Joined: Feb. 2008 | Days Active: 503
Join to learn more about Skifox England, United Kingdom | Bisexual Female | Posts: 5,162 | Points: 14,879
Manipulative Acid


Swami

Patron
Support Leader
Reply
Well, isn't it to do with the fact that each electron is on it's energy level, right? And it can only go to another level with a certain energy... Dunno if it's that you wanted...

-------
I do Swedish Polish and Portuguese translations. PM.

1:25 pm on Jan. 31, 2010 | Joined: Dec. 2007 | Days Active: 491
Join to learn more about Manipulative Acid Portugal | Straight Female | Posts: 8,385 | Points: 28,752
( MunchMan )


Dairy Product Addict
Reply
Okay... But where does said energy come from?
and why can't they be on different energy levels?

-------
Technical Talk and Discussions

1:31 pm on Jan. 31, 2010 | Joined: Oct. 2009 | Days Active: 42
Join to learn more about MunchMan North Dakota, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 275 | Points: 1,064
Manipulative Acid


Swami

Patron
Support Leader
Reply
Quote: from MunchMan at 9:31 pm on Jan. 31, 2010

Okay... But where does said energy come from?
and why can't they be on different energy levels?

The energy could be solar, or just heat...

Well I'll see if I can explain...
Say you have an atom. It has a few energy levels. Say there's an electron on the first energy level. It's exposed to some solar energy, with the power of 5 joules. But that electron can only move up a different energy with, say, 8 joules. It'll stay on the same energy level until 8 or more joules come along...

Sorry, I'm kinda crap at explaining, plus I'm translating this all from Portuguese in my head...

-------
I do Swedish Polish and Portuguese translations. PM.


1:36 pm on Jan. 31, 2010 | Joined: Dec. 2007 | Days Active: 491
Join to learn more about Manipulative Acid Portugal | Straight Female | Posts: 8,385 | Points: 28,752
sertrbl


Guru

Patron
Reply
Quote: from Manipulative Acid at 4:36 pm on Jan. 31, 2010

Quote: from MunchMan at 9:31 pm on Jan. 31, 2010

Okay... But where does said energy come from?  
 and why can't they be on different energy levels?

The energy could be solar, or just heat...

Well I'll see if I can explain...
Say you have an atom. It has a few energy levels. Say there's an electron on the first energy level. It's exposed to some solar energy, with the power of 5 joules. But that electron can only move up a different energy with, say, 8 joules. It'll stay on the same energy level until 8 or more joules come along...

Sorry, I'm kinda crap at explaining, plus I'm translating this all from Portuguese in my head...



I think his question is about why there are energy levels... why can't it move from 5 to 6 joules? or 5 to 5.5? or anywhere in between?

I think it DOES have to do with quantum physics... energy is measured by frequency and "quantum number" of the wave... since the frequency wouldn't change for a different particle, the "quantum number"  would change, but it's an integer, so it has to be in multiples of a certain quantity

-------
Trust me, I'm a scientist.


1:42 pm on Jan. 31, 2010 | Joined: Oct. 2009 | Days Active: 223
Join to learn more about sertrbl Ohio, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 10,921 | Points: 20,305
Infinite Inferno


Dairy Product Addict
Reply
Quote: from MunchMan at 1:12 pm on Jan. 31, 2010

So I have been thinking this lately... Why do electrons spin around an atom core? Of course it is because of attraction, but why do they spin around it, instead of going straight into the atom? AFAIK They are in a perfect circle, not an orbit so shouldn't they be just falling into it? I learned it has something to do with the fact that energy comes in packets, like 5ev or 10ev, but nothing in between. so they cant be anywhere, just in certain orbitals, or energy levels. Is this a form of natural quantum mechanics or what?
 
"if electrons and protons were the size of bowling balls, we'd expect them to slam into each other. But very small particles do some very weird things... one of which is, they never stop moving even in response to a totally attractive force which would otherwise just bring them slamming together."

So what's up with this? Do any chemists and physicists know the answer? Has anyone else here wondered about this?


The electron spins round and round as opposed to going into the atom because the forces of attraction the atom exerts is only strong enough for a certain distance. The electron exerts its force of repelling other like charges and due to the distance from the atom, the atom cannot suck the electron in. There's an equilibrium of forces acting on one another so as to prevent the electron from flying out and from being sucked in.

Other atoms do pull on them, however, due to the distance between them, the forces are not strong enough to pull them in one direction over another. Also, when you have two atoms, such as two hydrogen atoms, naturally there is some attraction between them, however, there is also resistance between them. It's a battle of competing forces: a force to attract and a force to repel. These forces only have a large effect within a certain radius and once you go past it, it's not that strong.

Why are there specific energy levels? My guess is that it has to do with stability. As you go up to a higher level, the circumference is greater and greater. Thus, more electrons can hop on BUT remember that each electron opposes another, so there is a limited amount that can stay on without making the energy level too unstable. That's my guess, although I'm sure there are other reasons.


2:29 pm on Jan. 31, 2010 | Joined: Oct. 2008 | Days Active: 69
Join to learn more about Infinite Inferno Canada | Posts: 784 | Points: 1,485
Neodymie

Guru

Patron
Reply
Well first of all energy levels are not nearly as precise as people typically make them out to be. It's actually a fairly large range. There's no, "this is where you're going to find the particle" it's, "it's going to be somewhere between here and here."

But the old idea as I understand it is similar to the way planets stay in orbit. There's a charge pulling them closer but because they're in motion the closer they get the more their kenetic energy increases and that pulls them back out. So they sit at a balance between kenetic energy and the energy that's pulling it towards the center.

Think of it as if you're spinning a ball on a string around your hand. If you shorten the string the ball spins faster and it gets harder and harder to hold onto. If you loosen your grip by x amount it will move outward and slow down until it's at an energy level equal to how hard you're holding it.

Now if suddenly the ball some how gains more energy it would jump out farther. When it loses that energy you would be able to pull it back in and hold it there with the same force of grip.


But that's all pretty much out the window now. It also says that if they were orbiting like say the planets do that they would be constantly radiating energy which would cause the orbits to decay over time but that doesn't happen... (Usually)

Now the newer way I don't really understand as well. I don't know too much about it. But I'll try. The electron is defined as a wave and a particle so it is quantified and it can only release energy in certain amounts. That's why it stays within a valence shell. When it's on the bottom it basically just doesn't have anywhere to go. It's not capable of emitting the right amount of energy to go lower than where it is.

Say the particle can only emit energy in .5 but it's .3 away from the center. It just can't drop the right amount of energy to sink any lower than where it is.

It is actually possible for an electron to hit the nucleus though. It's called inverse beta decay. It happens in isotopes when there are too many protons in the nucleus and it doesn't have enough energy to emit a positron.

Quantum mechanics is fun stuff.  

Post edited at 3:04 am on Feb. 1, 2010 by Neodymie

-------
I'ma Jew homie we gonna die.
Yo get the keys to the ride homie we gotta fly.
We gotta flee c'mon I got me some rocks.
I got some weed in my sock homie we gettin high.


3:01 am on Feb. 1, 2010 | Joined: July 2008 | Days Active: 439
Join to learn more about Neodymie Nevada, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 12,468 | Points: 20,650
imatwirp


Professional
Reply
Im, sorry but why is this in the intellectual forum?
This makes no sense at all to anyone that has taken a physics or biology or chemistry course.

Basics.
Proton = +
Electron = -
Neutron = 0

Ok, now that we have that down, I will explain how the atom works.

The protons and neutrons together form a positive charged extremely dense area.

If you were to put this in real life scale. The nucleus of an atom would be the size of a marble whilst the electron field around the nucleus would be a football field.  This is how densely packed the nucleus is. An electron isnt going to penetrate this mass without EXTREME force, such as a bomb or something.

Now to explain the electron field/cloud... The electrons dont exactly spin in circles. They actually rarely ever form consistent patterns. This is just what we use to explain them to students. Also because it is easier to draw out. But think of it this way. opposites attract. Almost like gravity on earth. satellites are attracted to the earth due to the force of gravity, thus they must stay a certain distance out, and move really fast to stay in orbit.

same thing with electrons. Except that electrons dont like to be anywhere near each other. Thus they have layers upon layers of fields that they constantly move up and down on.
It is difficult to just pinpoint a spot, and say an electron was there a second ago, because it might not have been there because they are erratic.


To put this on life size scale.

Imagine the satellites around earth as electrons. If we had them all on one level, eventually they would collide, so we position them everywhere and at different levels so that the risk is low.

-------
If I wanted to listen to an asshole. Id fart.


6:20 pm on Feb. 1, 2010 | Joined: Nov. 2005 | Days Active: 177
Join to learn more about imatwirp Texas, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 469 | Points: 2,278
Event Horizon


Visionary

Patron
Reply
recently some physicists have posited that electrons don't orbit necessarily, but exist in a perpetual state of "around the atom" due to uncertainty. They claim that electrons aren't really "particles" but are really just energy levels that exhibit probabilistic behaviors when it comes to movement.

Also, electrons have a negative charge, whereas protons have a positive charge, EM forces keep them nicely apart. As the person above noted, if the nucleus was the sun, the electrons would orbit similar to the way the planets do. But faster, and with random motion.

-------
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.
  --Isaac Asimov


5:42 pm on Feb. 3, 2010 | Joined: May 2008 | Days Active: 562
Join to learn more about Event Horizon New York, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 3,445 | Points: 9,898
Anonymous

Reply
i think one helpful way to explain this might be to look at the historical context of studying the atom. So we will start from Rutherford's model of the atom, which consisted of having protons (and the neutrons were added later after they were discovered by Chadwick) and neutrons in the nucleus, and then electrons orbiting this nucleus.

Now this raised two problems for the science. The first was, if the nucleus had all positive charges, then why don't the protons repel each other like all other positive charges (keep in mind that gravity is completely negligible compared to electromagnetic forces, especially when dealing with such small masses as protons and neutrons)?

The second question requires a little knowledge of electromagnetic waves. If electrons had no charge, but somehow there was an attractive force between the electron and the nucleus then it would be conceivable that electrons orbited the nucleus in a similar manner to the planets orbiting the sun, which is that they have enough velocity to keep the acceleration perpendicular to the direction of motion and thus forming an approximately circular orbit; however, there was a problem with this model, which is that electrons are charged. When you oscillate or move a charged particle, it changes the electric and magnetic fields in space, and thus this change propagates through space as a wave, specifically and electromagnetic wave, which light is a type of. These waves carry energy with them, and thus if an electron is orbiting the nucleus, it would be moving all the time and constantly radiating electromagnetic energy, which would in turn cause it to lose all its energy, slowing it down and causing it to spiral into the nucleus.

These problems existed inherently due to the assumptions of Classical Physics, which most notably includes the Continuum Hypothesis, which is the idea that physical quantities are continuous. Now for the world we deal with on a daily basis, the world of atoms is so small, that we can treat tables, cars, chairs, and even insects and continuous objects, and we have an amazingly strong approximation; however, at the level of an atom, obviously this assumption no longer holds.

The first problem was due to the lack of knowledge about two of the fundamental forces. For Classical Mechanics, everything came down to Electromagnetism or Gravity. Since the resolution of the first problem is not as interesting (as well as quite frankly i still do not know much of the theory behind it) a force later known as the strong force or Strong Nuclear Force was found that exists between the protons and neutrons that is much stronger than electromagnetism, but it decays much faster with distance and thus does not exist beyond the nucleus.

The second problem was studied by looking at a phenomena known as Blackbody Radiation. A Blackbody is called a blackbody because the idea is it absorbs all light that is shone on it and thus appears black when not heated. These objects allow us to observe how atoms absorb and then give off light. The idea is when you heat a blackbody, it gives off light because the atoms in it gain energy and so oscillate back and forth and as stated above, when charged particles oscillate they give off electromagnetic radiation. The original classical physics prediction was that these bodies would give off all kinds of light if heated to the right temperature because energy transmission and the light spectra should be continuous. This turned out to be experimentally wrong, thus a new theory was necessary. This is what was known as the "Ultraviolet Catastrophe". Objects it turns out will not go violet and then ultraviolet, but when heated they stay around red and orange and white.

A scientist name Max Planck then hypothesized that instead, things are discrete or are "quantized", meaning that energy, especially light is carried in packets of energy called "quanta" or nowadays photons and that these come in a fixed energy level. This new hypothesis was able to explain the blackbody experiment as well as another known as the photoelectric effect. Now keep in mind, these quanta are very small and thus as far as we are concerned at the macroscopic level, they are continuous.

Niels Bohr then took this quanta idea to create the model of the atom you are discussing, where the electrons orbit the nucleus in circles, but they cannot collapse into the nucleus, because they can only lose energy if they lose that energy all at once in that fixed amount, and that energy is large for the electrons. While this explanation is nice and still decently intuitive, it is wrong, though on the right track. What i am going to discuss next was partially integrated into Bohr's model of the atom by Bohr, but he did not take it far enough.

You may have noticed that i seem to have said to things in contradiction in what i have written. i said that light is an electromagnetic wave but that it also travels as a photon, thus i have said light acts both as a particle and as a wave. This is known as the Wave-Particle Duality, and a scientist named De-Broigle proposed that this is true of all things and even came up with an approximate equation describing this. If we let h be plancks constant, which is about 6.626*10^-34 Joules*seconds, L be the wavelength, p be the momentum, m be the mass, and v be the velocity, we have that:
L=h/p and since p=mv we have L=h/(mv)
Thus the higher the mass, the smaller the wavelength and if you use this to approximate, you will see that even bacteria have pretty insignificant wavelengths (note the significance should be judged relative to the geometric dimensions of the object). For an electron this is significant, however, and implies that electrons act as waves.

Another thing, known as the Uncertainty Principle was also derived, which stated that the momentum and position of an object could not be known at the same time beyond a certain accuracy and this allows for a wave function or probability distribution to exist for the electron. In other words, what this means is that the electron is not a particle, but is instead a diffuse probability distribution of negative charge that has no position or orbit. In fact, they can be model by a wave equation derived by Schrodinger and thus in quantum mechanics, things become even more complicated than Bohr expected.

Thus the modern view of the electron is that it is a sort of cloud of charge distributed around the nucleus that does not have well defined boundaries and instead is just modeled by a probability function. These are often called orbitals by Chemistry students and if you look up orbitals, you can see some drawings. Note, however, that these drawings show the boundary within which you have a 90% chance of finding the electron, but 10% of the time, the electron will be somewhere else. Some of this may have been confusing, but i hope it helps. If not, please ask about anything that confused you and i will discuss it more.  


6:13 am on Feb. 6, 2010
gro


Soothsayer

Patron
Reply

recently some physicists have posited that electrons don't orbit necessarily, but exist in a perpetual state of "around the atom" due to uncertainty. They claim that electrons aren't really "particles" but are really just energy levels that exhibit probabilistic behaviors when it comes to movement.  

you realize by recently you mean like a century ago right?

-------
is he ill? does he really fit the bill?

5:39 am on Feb. 9, 2010 | Joined: Mar. 2006 | Days Active: 601
Join to learn more about gro Afghanistan | Bisexual | Posts: 3,980 | Points: 10,989
Event Horizon


Visionary

Patron
Reply
Fair enough, what I should have said was;

Recently physicists have been able to posit the probabilistic nature of electron orbits with some degree of scientific certainty.

It wasn't until the 80's that we were able to slow atoms down enough to actually study them.

-------
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.It's the transition
that's troublesome.
  --Isaac Asimov


1:29 pm on Feb. 9, 2010 | Joined: May 2008 | Days Active: 562
Join to learn more about Event Horizon New York, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 3,445 | Points: 9,898
Pages: 1 2  Next » Email Print Favorite

Quick Reply

Prereq. Intellectual Test
You are signed in as our guest.

Looking for something else?
 

  LiveWire / Teen Forums / The Intellectual Forum / Viewing Topic