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Medieval European Men Seem to Have Had Women Right |
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Replies: 14 Last Post Nov. 9 7:31pm by jakelong
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( Bud2400 )
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This quote below is a passage from The Art of Courtly Love, written by a man from Aquitaine (southern France) called Andreas Capellanus in the late 12th century. To put it in context, the book was intended as a guide to male students to the norms of courtly love, how to win a woman's love, and what to do with it / how to keep the affair a secret. He inserts his own opinion below at the end of the book as to why courtly love is essentially a waste of time, and he may just have a little insight about women that men today still argue about. "Again we confound lovers with another argument. The mutual love which you seek in women you cannot find, for no woman ever loved a man or could bind herself to a lover in the mutual bonds of love. For a woman's desire is to get rich through love, but not to give her lover the solaces that please him. Nobody ought to wonder at this, because it is natural. According to the nature of their sex all women are spotted with the vice of a grasping and avaricious disposition, and they are always alert and devoted to the search for money or profit. I have traveled through a great many parts of the world, and although I made careful inquiries I could never find a man who would say that he had discovered a woman who if a thing was not offered to her would not demand it insistently and would not hold off from falling in love unless she got rich gifts in one way or another. But even though you have given a woman innumerable presents, if she discovers that you are less attentive about giving her things than you used to be, or if she learns that you have lost your money, she will treat like a perfect stranger who has come from some other country, and everything you do will bore her or annoy her. You cannot find a woman who will love you so much or be so constant to you that if somebody else comes to her and offers her presents she will be faithful to her love. Women have so much avarice that generous gifts break down all the barriers of their virtue. If you come with open hands, no women will let you go away without that which you seek; while if you don't promise to give them a great deal, you needn't come to them and ask for anything. Even if you are distinguished by royal honors, but bring no gifts with you, you will get absolutely nothing from them; you will be turned away from their doors in shame. Because of their avarice all women are thieves, and we say they carry purses. You cannot find a woman of such lofty station or blessed with such honor or wealth that an offer of money will not break down her virtue, and there is no man, no matter how disgraced and low-born he is, who cannot seduce her if he has great wealth. This is so because no woman ever has enough money - just as no drunkard ever thinks he has had enough to drink. Even if the whole earth and sea were turned to gold, they could hardly satisfy that avarice of a woman. Furthermore, not only is every woman by nature a miser, but she is also envious and a slanderer of other women, greedy, a slave to her belly, inconstant, fickle in her speech, disobedient and impatient of restrain, spotted with the sin of pride and desirous of vainglory, a liar, a drunkard, a babbler, no keeper of secrets, too much given to wantonness, prone to every evil, and never loving any man in her heart. Now woman is a miser, because there isn't a wickedness in the world that men can think of that she will not boldly indulge in for the sake of money, and, even if she has an abundance she will not help anyone who is in need. You can more easily scratch a diamond with your fingernail than you can by any human ingenuity get a woman to consent to giving you any of her savings. Just as Epicurus believed that the highest good lay in serving the belly, so a woman thinks that the only things worth while in this world are riches and holding on to what she has. You can't find any woman so simple and foolish that she is unable to look out for her own property with a greedy tenacity, and with great mental subtlety get hold of the possessions of someone else. Indeed, even a simple woman is more careful about selling a single hen than the wisest lawyer is in deeding away a great castle. Furthermore, no woman is ever so violently in love with a man that she will not devote all her efforts to using up his property. You will find that this rule never fails and admits of no exceptions." Think there's any truth in Capellanus's words? Post edited at 10:34 pm on Nov. 6, 2009 by Bud2400
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10:33 pm on Nov. 6, 2009 | Joined: Dec. 2004 | Days Active: 1,387 Join to learn more about Bud2400 Washington, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 9,715 | Points: 38,218
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 LiveWire Humor
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CCMetalhead
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Bud, you are a genius but to be quite frank, I'm a bit too drunk to read this. I'll add it to my ookmarks and read it tomorrow.
------- Moving on, is a simple thing, what it leaves behind is hard. -Dave Mustaine of Megadeth
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Rollo Tomasi
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disregard females acquire currency
------- sorry about my face guys
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ASS FUCK SUPREME
T'was An Experiment.
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Quote: from CCMetalhead at 10:35 pm on Nov. 6, 2009
Bud, you are a genius but to be quite frank, I'm a bit too drunk to read this. I'll add it to my ookmarks and read it tomorrow.
Why the fuck is he a genius? For stating know facts?
------- ]BrB
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CCMetalhead
Dairy Product Addict
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Quote: from Ass FUCK Supreme at 10:36 pm on Nov. 6, 2009
Quote: from CCMetalhead at 10:35 pm on Nov. 6, 2009
Bud, you are a genius but to be quite frank, I'm a bit too drunk to read this. I'll add it to my ookmarks and read it tomorrow.
Why the fuck is he a genius? For stating know facts?
Hey, don't be mad because I'm being an idiot. You seem to be taking me way too seriously, which will get you no where. And besides, did I say he was a genius because of this post? No, I did not, so fuck you too, bitch. Post edited at 10:41 pm on Nov. 6, 2009 by CCMetalhead
------- Moving on, is a simple thing, what it leaves behind is hard. -Dave Mustaine of Megadeth
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( Bud2400 )
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Quote: from Stormblazer at 10:38 pm on Nov. 6, 2009
If you mean that it reflects the same bullshit that taints the possibilities of healthy relationships today, then yes. What Aquinas described is not really all that natural, it's the result of fucked up socialization.
I think you mean Andreas Capellanus (the author of that quote), not Thomas Aquinas. Thomas Aquinas had a much more optimistic view of women than Capellanus seems to have had. But then again, Thomas Aquinas was given to a monastery (the one at Monte Cassino) to become a monk when he was a young boy and thus rarely interacted with women throughout the course of his life anyway.
And it's just one more reason I argue against gender roles - they lead to the kind of corruptive bullshit outlined above.
Courtly love is essentially that - man chases after a beautiful woman and woos her with gifts, woman acts disinterested (although interested enough so as to not discourage the man) and plays the whole hard to get act. In other medieval works written primarily for women, it even mentions this and talks of the wisdom of keeping two conjoined bedrooms - so you may manipulate one man and get his money, tell him you're going to go pee or go for a snack, and then go to the next room and manipulate another man at the same time. There you go back and forth over and over. Double the money, hardly any extra effort. Post edited at 10:59 pm on Nov. 6, 2009 by Bud2400
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10:56 pm on Nov. 6, 2009 | Joined: Dec. 2004 | Days Active: 1,387 Join to learn more about Bud2400 Washington, United States | Straight Male | Posts: 9,715 | Points: 38,218
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SpRiNgS
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yeesh I kind of disagree :/
------- pressure becomes real only the moment we acknowledge that it can affect us
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Stormblazer
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Quote: from Aristocrat at 11:58 pm on Nov. 6, 2009
This is going to fascinating topic, it is late to my end now but God willing I shall be back to read it tomorrow. Quote: from Stormblazer at 10:38 pm on Nov. 6, 2009
If you mean that it reflects the same bullshit that taints the possibilities of healthy relationships today, then yes. What Aquinas described is not really all that natural, it's the result of fucked up socialization. And it's just one more reason I argue against gender roles - they lead to the kind of corruptive bullshit outlined above. 
Typical Stormblazer, you are hating it because it reflects the views of mine and the society structured and gender roles? Lol 
Wrong - did you even read it? Aquitaine was commenting on relationship problems, I merely supplied a reason for why they existed. Let's face it, any paradigm will have issues... but at least mine includes methods of actually solving them inherent to the process. Post edited at 1:07 am on Nov. 7, 2009 by Stormblazer
------- Religion: Atheistic agnostic, political independent Polyamory FAQ Relationships
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Stormblazer
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Quote: from Bud2400 at 11:56 pm on Nov. 6, 2009
Courtly love is essentially that - man chases after a beautiful woman and woos her with gifts, woman acts disinterested (although interested enough so as to not discourage the man) and plays the whole hard to get act. In other medieval works written primarily for women, it even mentions this and talks of the wisdom of keeping two conjoined bedrooms - so you may manipulate one man and get his money, tell him you're going to go pee or go for a snack, and then go to the next room and manipulate another man at the same time. There you go back and forth over and over. Double the money, hardly any extra effort.
Yeah, I meant Aquitaine not Aquinas sorry.
------- Religion: Atheistic agnostic, political independent Polyamory FAQ Relationships
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pumpkin475
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as soon as he said "all women", he lost his credibility to me and i read no further. generalizing gets people nowhere
------- insanity is what keeps me sane
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8:48 pm on Nov. 8, 2009 | Joined: Sep. 2006 | Days Active: 423 Join to learn more about pumpkin475 Louisiana, United States | Label Free Female | Posts: 6,586 | Points: 11,418
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omgxitsxjosh
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I can agree with that.
------- C'est la vie...
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