@fenrir: I don't know when you learned English but you still haven't quite mastered when Italics are appropriate.

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...whether or not I use Italics responsibly has absolutely no bearing in this discussion or "debate" where you have failed to do anything besides show us how naive you truly are.

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@ Nikki: Life isn't fair? Well, bitch gets murdered, but hey, life isn't fair.  

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What's your point here? We both agreed that her getting murdered is wrong, so that kinda makes your post moot.

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oh, she's a dreamer ♥
be the change you wish to see in the world
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currently studying in france

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I prefer L'Etranger/The Stranger to Crime and Punishment, but both were excellent books.

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L'Etranger was good, actually.

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oh, she's a dreamer ♥
be the change you wish to see in the world
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currently studying in france

i see what bearsy is saying, but it is flawed logic. yes, the murderer could probably justify to himself that he had done the 'right' thing. if you take a consequentialist approach - absolutely. kill one to save a bunch. there you go, solved.

it isn't that simple.

i am not a consequentialist, so i can't agree with you. as a humanist, i hold the value of humanity above anything else. and that doesn't mean human life either. i value humanity as an evolving whole, and what it is that sets us apart from animals. things like compassion, like forethought, like love.

by killing that elderly woman for, essentially, something as fickle as currency, you are devaluing humanity. some things just aren't worth destroying ourselves for.

arguments like "but she stole!" and "but what about the poor kiddies!" just don't hold any weight when the alternative is as barbaric as murder.

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In the world we must seek, love is purged of the instinct for domination.
-- Bertrand Russel, Proposed Roads to Freedom

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Quote: from Its Bearsy Bitch at 10:52 pm on Sep. 24, 2008

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@ Nikki: Life isn't fair? Well, bitch gets murdered, but hey, life isn't fair.  

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What's your point here? We both agreed that her getting murdered is wrong, so that kinda makes your post moot.

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What's next?

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"How incitful of you, dwarf. Though I can't speak for fenrir,
I beleive that he too has a certain degree of sarcasm
and humor in his posts." - Prince o palities

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It's still murder, though, even if she was about to die. Who's to say that the day after her death all the poor people don't suddenly die in a fire, or something?

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arguments like "but she stole!" and "but what about the poor kiddies!" just don't hold any weight when the alternative is as barbaric as murder.

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This pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.

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oh, she's a dreamer ♥
be the change you wish to see in the world
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currently studying in france

#2: JUST FOR THE RECORD she did not obtain this money through legal means, she raised the interest after the pawning which is a crime.

#3: These people might starve to death, why is one human life worth more than many? That's probably the logic the murderer is using so in my eyes he can still be considered a good person. He isn't doing it for selfish motives.

Post edited at 1:14 pm on Sep. 25, 2008 by Bearsy

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Quote: from Nikki at 10:42 am on Sep. 24, 2008

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It's still murder, though, even if she was about to die. Who's to say that the day after her death all the poor people don't suddenly die in a fire, or something?

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I feel like this sums up pretty much the entire post.

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For instance in my state assisted suicide is legal only to people who are going to die in a few months anyway. Are you going to argue, "Well that's as wrong as helping a healthy teenager kill himself because he might have died in a car crash the next day anyway!"

Very weak argument.

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^use head phones

a consequentialist values the ends over the means. basically, if you do the greatest good for the greatest number of people, you are in the right. using this approach, yes, you would be 'in the right' if you killed the woman, as it improves the lives of a greater number of people.

a deontologist is more concerned with the action itself, rather than its result. this is the point i'm making. i am saying that despite the outcome, killing somebody is wrong. always. no exceptions. it degrades humanity. using this approach, it would be wrong to kill the woman.

by killing the old hag, you are making a conscious decision to commit murder. you are actively ending a life. i believe, and will probably not be swayed on this, that this is wrong.

as you can see, it all depends what approach you take to the scenario as to whether the act is acceptable or not.

and to answer your question: yes, the man who kills the hag could be considered a good person depending on your school of thought. however, in my opinion, he is not.

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In the world we must seek, love is purged of the instinct for domination.
-- Bertrand Russel, Proposed Roads to Freedom

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the way i see this, it isnt about capitalism, communism, or any other ism...  

i see what bearsy is saying, but it is flawed logic. yes, the murderer could probably justify to himself that he had done the 'right' thing. if you take a consequentialist approach - absolutely. kill one to save a bunch. there you go, solved.

it isn't that simple.

i am not a consequentialist, so i can't agree with you. as a humanist, i hold the value of humanity above anything else. and that doesn't mean human life either. i value humanity as an evolving whole, and what it is that sets us apart from animals. things like compassion, like forethought, like love.

by killing that elderly woman for, essentially, something as fickle as currency, you are devaluing humanity. some things just aren't worth destroying ourselves for.  

arguments like "but she stole!" and "but what about the poor kiddies!" just don't hold any weight when the alternative is as barbaric as murder.

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as a humanist you would want to save many instead of one.

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click and please click
^use head phones

http://www.golivewire.com/forums/peer-yyoynyo-support-a.html

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click and please click
^use head phones