Sin is what creates the need for an atoning savior.  Belief in that savior is what gives man a conduit for becoming sinless because he has no way to atone for his own sins except through death and damnation.  Being sinless doesn't save us because to be sinless would be to not need salvation.

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"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one  might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

oh. .well..Josephine doesnt need salvation. she got into heaven on her own?

throwing in your favorite gospel:

all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..

what are we to make of that in light of this thought that sinlessness is theoretically possible?

Post edited at 9:34 am on Nov. 6, 2008 by barnabas

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Do not abandon yourselves to despair.
We are the Easter people and hallelujah is our song.

Pope John Paul II

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If Josephine has never sinned. Of course, Josephine has sinned so she's in real trouble if she tries to manage on her own.

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But I cannot bring myself to admit the possibility that she could be in a sinless state.

sigh. off to read some theology, which will only further confuse me.

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Do not abandon yourselves to despair.
We are the Easter people and hallelujah is our song.

Pope John Paul II

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You're arguing like Jesse. You can't just ignore the facts and keep saying "but I just can't accept that." Sin separates from God, yes? Then without sin, there is nothing to separate men from God. You have to either assert that God ordained man to sin or that man is capable of not sinning.

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how rude. I am not. I am just struggling to put it all together.  I am reading bonhoffer, luther, and moltmann who all have a lot to say about the sinful state and I am struggling to get an answer that I find to be true.

I was speaking of a personal struggle, not a theological disacceptance. I apologize.

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Do not abandon yourselves to despair.
We are the Easter people and hallelujah is our song.

Pope John Paul II

Are Luther and Bonhoffer disagreeing?  Don't you read any proper theologians?

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"It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one  might expect, has
no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen

This is the philosophy of my life.

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I'm just giving you a hard time. The point is that I can't imagine a way to safely say that man cannot be sinless of his own free will.

Are Luther and Bonhoffer disagreeing? Don't you read any proper theologians?

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I had a debate with him recently. it hurt my brain. I hope I am not that bad at arguing theology.

bonhoffer and luther compare sin to cancer. they claim it impact the very marrow of our bones.

hello, have you met me? I am at a lutheran seminary.

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Do not abandon yourselves to despair.
We are the Easter people and hallelujah is our song.

Pope John Paul II

If we don't accept a literal understanding of The Fall of man, there's no reason to think that any event brought man into a state of sin. If that is so, then we are now just as God created us, and just as he intended for us to be. Unless God intended a sinful creation from the beginning, it doesn't follow that sin is a state, but that sinfulness is our tendency.

I'd be inclined to say that to sin is to act in a way out of accordance with God's prescribed ways, and if a human somehow had the capacity to avoid doing that, they would live and die sinless*.

Edit: Having read some of the discussion, I'll add that I think with (*) there'd be no need for salvation.

Post edited at 5:26 pm on Nov. 7, 2008 by Shaknbake

Rape, molestation and incest should be added and anyone committing these plus murder should be executed.

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I don't like any of the choices. I think the list of sins can start with the Ten Commandments for which needs to be updated.  

Rape, molestation and incest should be added and anyone committing these plus murder should be executed.

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that has nothing do to with what we are talking about.

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Do not abandon yourselves to despair.
We are the Easter people and hallelujah is our song.

Pope John Paul II