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osmoticdespair
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Quote: from Majo at 3:53 am on Nov. 5, 2008
I attended a Catholic liturgy my first semester of college and walked away thinking it was too showy for my tastes. Too much standing and sitting and kneeling and chanting, etc. I didn't care for it, I think if you want to worship, you should do so in private rather than put on a circus.
Yes, perish the thought that we should offer up the best of what we have to God, or that worship should involve our whole bodies as well as our minds. Why use a golden chalice when any old coffee mug will do? Why kneel when you can slouch nonchalantly? It's all just mud to God anyway right? But maybe it's the thought that counts.
------- Κύριε ἐλέησον
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( Anonymous )
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Quote: from dreamweaver at 7:58 pm on Nov. 4, 2008
Actually not all Catholics believe he was an only child, but that she was indeed a virgin upon his conception. Also, some people think that Joseph might have had children before he was married to Mary, and that his former wife died. No one is too sure about that, but there has been evidence (even in the Catholic bible) that there may have been siblings. If you ask your priest more about it, he may fill you in more about it. I am not sure about the deuterocanonical books, as I personally have very little knowledge about that at all. Sorry. 
The belief that Joseph had children from a previous wife is one that the Orthodox Church holds (and some other Christians I am sure). Personally, I think it is an argument from silence. Moreover, Mary being a devout Jew, would have continued to have more children with Joseph. The gospels talk about Jesus having brothers and sisters, however, the Catholic argument is that brothers and sisters could mean cousins as well as actual brothers and sisters. I would also consider that as an argument from silence since there is not much to support that belief scripturally. One thing I have heard people say about Catholics is that they believe, or have believed that sex is wrong. I was curious if that is true and how that developed. I remember reading that priests would have days when Catholics could not have sex. It eventually culminated into Catholics not actually having sex most days of the year! I would be interested into comparing and contrasting the different beliefs Catholics have with the Orthodox Church. Why did Catholics decide to stand during mass (during the council of Nicea I believe) when Jesus and the early Christians - including Paul, prostrate? I think I could go on, but it is an interesting topic for me. Are these differences and 'innovations' a bad thing for Christianity, or is Christianity a religion that can evolve and change some of its practices? Post edited at 8:09 pm on Nov. 4, 2008 by Anonymous
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spartan09
Wealthy Hobo
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Yeah, I'm Catholic. If you wanna ask questions, feel free to message me. I won't bite, I promise. :P
One thing I never understood, is why Catholics believed that Mary had no children. According to the priest, in the Gospel of John, Jesus asks one of his disciples to watch over his mom. According to the priest, in Jewish tradition, the next eldest brother would watch over his mother if her husband and oldest son had died. Is this true? Some Christians, including myself, always regarded James (from Acts 15, the person that has historically been thought of as the writer of the epistle of James) as Jesus' brother and not his cousin. 
I think it goes along the tradition that Mary is supposed to be a virgin. Not sure about the second one with the books of the Bible. I can ask my religion teacher tomorrow if you want, but you could also ask your priest that one.
------- Everybody look at you 'cause you're sailing on a FAILBOAT.
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Majo
Soothsayer
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Quote: from osmoticdespair at 11:00 pm on Nov. 4, 2008
Quote: from Majo at 3:53 am on Nov. 5, 2008
I attended a Catholic liturgy my first semester of college and walked away thinking it was too showy for my tastes. Too much standing and sitting and kneeling and chanting, etc. I didn't care for it, I think if you want to worship, you should do so in private rather than put on a circus.
Yes, perish the thought that we should offer up the best of what we have to God, or that worship should involve our whole bodies as well as our minds. Why use a golden chalice when any old coffee mug will do? Why kneel when you can slouch nonchalantly? It's all just mud to God anyway right? But maybe it's the thought that counts.
A perfect example of exactly what turned me off of Catholicism. I took a religion course and was told that you're not even supposed to make a show out of it, it's supposed to be private and personal, it's only gotten showier with time. And if people weren't such blooming idiots, always chanting and kneeling, they'd know God doesn't reside in manmade buildings, you could sit in your bedroom and pray to yourself and it'd be the same thing, He does not live in your church or your basement or your bedroom or your bathroom, etc. Pray where you wish, make it personal, connect, don't act like a goddamn attention whore is all I'm saying. All of that shit makes it so impersonal to those of us who don't take comfort in following blindly.
------- "Under the hardness of her facade a woman's heart is still beating."
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8:38 pm on Nov. 4, 2008 | Joined: May 2005 | Days Active: 301 Join to learn more about Majo Pennsylvania, United States | Straight Female | Posts: 6,733 | Points: 10,531
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dreamweaver
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Quote: from Anonymous at 11:08 pm on Nov. 4, 2008Quote: from dreamweaver at 7:58 pm on Nov. 4, 2008Actually not all Catholics believe he was an only child, but that she was indeed a virgin upon his conception. Also, some people think that Joseph might have had children before he was married to Mary, and that his former wife died. No one is too sure about that, but there has been evidence (even in the Catholic bible) that there may have been siblings. If you ask your priest more about it, he may fill you in more about it. I am not sure about the deuterocanonical books, as I personally have very little knowledge about that at all. Sorry. The belief that Joseph had children from a previous wife is one that the Orthodox Church holds (and some other Christians I am sure). Personally, I think it is an argument from silence. Moreover, Mary being a devout Jew, would have continued to have more children with Joseph. The gospels talk about Jesus having brothers and sisters, however, the Catholic argument is that brothers and sisters could mean cousins as well as actual brothers and sisters. I would also consider that as an argument from silence since there is not much to support that belief scripturally. Ok, yeah... I have heard that from my own priest as well. He says they think that due to the translation. The word that was originally used was universal on relatives, apparently. That's why they think that and are not sure about it. But the possibility is still there- it's not like they completely ignore it, ya know? One thing I have heard people say about Catholics is that they believe, or have believed that sex is wrong. I was curious if that is true and how that developed. I remember reading that priests would have days when Catholics could not have sex. It eventually culminated into Catholics not actually having sex most days of the year! I would be interested into comparing and contrasting the different beliefs Catholics have with the Orthodox Church. Why did Catholics decide to stand during mass (during the council of Nicea I believe) when Jesus and the early Christians - including Paul, prostrate? That's an ongoing argument within the church, much like some other arguments. One scripture says one thing while the other preaches something totally the opposite. I would suggest just deciding on that issue on your own, really. But also keep in mind the context of the authors. I think it was John (probably wrong here) who was the one that preached that it was a sin to have sex and that you should be meditating and staying abstinence in order to obey God's law and get into heaven. Personally, I think his ideals were more of a form of guidelines for early monks who would continue the work of the disciples. As with any research you do on any subject, trying to understand the context and the time period of the document can be more work than the actual reading of the document. But it's worth it, especially if you really want to try and understand what the authors is trying to say.
------- "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" | Rise ------ Vote for an OB forum ------
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( Anonymous )
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I'm not entirely sure that you should understand the historical context in which biblical passages were revealed to actually understand the...bible. If the bible was a book inspired by a competent God, then shouldn't the bible be complete in understanding how people are supposed to follow God's commands? How would people correctly follow the Bible before modern archeology and history? Were they following the bible's commands wrongly even though they were following what the bible actually said...?
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PrincessLillaMarie
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I have no problem with Catholics as people, I just have a problem with they way they interpreted the bible. Honestly being the religion directly descendant from Jesus, they are very warped.
------- I need to run away to find out who I am. I need to stay and face what I've become.
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Prince o palities
Who's your daddy?
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Okay, here we go: Catholics and the Bible: It is the stance of the Catholic Church that it predates the Bible and was instrumental in the canon, which in some ways is true and in other ways is entirely specious (if you want me to expand on that, I can). Because the Church created the Bible, the Church is not subject to it as a sole authority (as is the belief of many Protestant churches). Thus, the Bible is entirely true but not the entirety of truth. The tradition of the Church is also normative for Christian living. So, for example, the doctrine of purgatory is not outlined in Scripture, but belief in it became normative for Catholics during the Middle Ages. The immaculate conception is not in Scripture, but it is part of a Mary cult that finds its roots in the fifth century. And so on and so on. If you believe that the Bible is the sole normative authority in ethics and doctrine, you'd make a bad Catholic. The perpetual virginity of Mary: The aforementioned Mary cult began formally in the fifth century with the Nestorian controversy and the Council of Ephesus. Since then, the Catholic church has elaborated its doctrine of Mary a great deal. Mary was a perpetual virgin, thus making the "brothers and sisters" of Jesus cousins or half-brothers (something for which there is no textual evidence). Mary was immaculately conceived, and therefore did not carry original sin in her when she conceived and bore Christ. Mary was assumed bodily into heaven. And so on and so on. You're going to have to swallow a lot of Mary to be a thoroughgoing Catholic. She plays a larger role in their doctrine and liturgy than most other Christians are used to or comfortable with. The Apocrypha: When discussing the Hebrew versus early Christian Old Testament canons, one must realize that the concept of a Jewish canon was by no means set during the earliest period of Christianity. The Septuagint included different books depending on what region of the empire it was translated in. The Apocryphal books are given a sort of secondary status in Catholicism, part of a broader group of "deuterocanonical books" which includes both Old and New Testament writings. It's most easily understood as part of the greater Catholic scheme of graded authority. There are the two broad categories of tradition and sacred scripture and under the latter category you have canonical literature and deutero-canonical literature. Protestants rejected the books because their movement was reactionary. They wanted to strip away everything from Catholicism that was extra-biblical. Since the Apocrypha and other deutero-canonical literature was considered sub-canonical, so to speak, it was rejected. In my opinion, the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of deutero-canonical literature as profitable but not independently normative is far superior to the Protestant view. Questions for your priest [or] issues that many people have going into Catholicism who only have exposure to Protestantism: Some doctrines you may want to ask about are apostolic succession, the papacy, transubstantiation, original sin, the sacraments, penance and absolution, and most importantly ask what the Catholic Church believes about social issues you consider to be important. What do they believe about abortion, birth control, gay marriage, war, divorce, etc.? If it is important to you, you need to know what the Catholic Church believes about it. Hope that helped.
------- "It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen This is the philosophy of my life.
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osmoticdespair
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Quote: from Prince o palities at 4:47 pm on Nov. 6, 2008
Quote: from osmoticdespair at 9:58 pm on Nov. 4, 2008
I like Catholics so much I want to be one. Actually I find Catholics kind of annoying sometimes, especially the middle aged women ones (the old women are kind of cool, but the middle aged hippy ones, oy vey!) but I still think that the Church preserves the deposit of faith and is indefectable at that basic level. 
Why the Catholic and not the Orthodox church? I ask because the Orthodox church has elaborated doctrine a great deal less in my opinion and has an equal, if not stronger, claim to apostolicity than does the Roman Catholic church since at least some of its primatial sees were established by apostles and they preserve a more ancient ecclesiology than does the Catholic church (late second-early third century rather than the fifth century Catholic ecclesiology). 
I wish I didn't have to choose between them and they were all one etc. But having that choice I picked Catholic for several reasons: 1) I was worried that my attraction to Orthodoxy was based on exoticness of it. Whereas Catholicism whilst new to me, and in a sense a whole new world, did not have any kind of exotic appeal having been in the periferies of my life from a very young age. 2) I didn't think the Orthodox Church could be considered "one" in the same way as the Catholic Church, whether or not that is the right kind of oneness though... does play on my mind. Equally I think the Catholic Church has better claim to universality. 3) Being that the UK probably has very few Orthodox churches I would not have an opportunity to participate fully in the sacramental life if I became Orthodox, although I did consider moving (even though I have never successfully left home without homesickness driving me back) quite seriously, but in combination with the other two I can't claim it wasn't an influence.
------- Κύριε ἐλέησον
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Prince o palities
Who's your daddy?
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The first and the third reasons make sense to me, but I'd love it if you would elaborate on the second one a little.
------- "It is the wrong question to ask, and therefore, as one might expect, has no right answer." - Hans von Campenhausen This is the philosophy of my life.
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