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Quote: from Wilder at 10:15 am on Oct. 21, 2008

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I'd be very suprised if you've had more extended experience with addictive substances than myself, and if that's correct then you have no place to talk.

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 You're making the same mistake that BB originally slammed you for. The fact that in your personal opinion you were not addicted in the instances when you did some substances in no way constitutes grounds to make a universal statement about the nature of addiction--to do so is to commit a logical fallacy.  

 In short, when someone goes into seizures and dies because of alcohol addiction you can't brush it off as a state of mind because it was easy for you to come off speed.

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 Like I said, if you can provide solid evidence to the contrary of my argument then you've got me. But you can't. Also, typically deaths from alcohol poisoning result from binge drinking, not a so-called "alcohol addiction". Sadnessness, cannabis is said to be a "gateway drug" by DARE and similar programs, but if you ask actual drug users you'll almost always find that they began using recreational substances with alcohol.

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When I said "someone dies from alcohol addiction," I meant just that. I wasn't talking about "Joe goes to a party, drinks half a gallon of vodka, passes out, and then dies." That wouldn't be dying from alcohol addiction, that would be dying from alcohol. Dying from alcohol addiction is "Joe drinks so heavily that he becomes addicted to alcohol. Then he stops drinking, so he goes through alcohol withdrawal, start hallucinating, goes into seizures, and then dies because his body couldn't take not having alcohol in it."

As far as that solid evidence to the contrary that I can't find:

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Recovering alcoholics often refer to that rough period of alcohol withdrawal as the DTs. Delirium tremens usually occurs within a day after one's last drink or dose of medication, but may happen several days after cessation of drinking. The condition, if left untreated, can be fatal in approximately 30% of those ceasing heavy long-term drinking.

Delirium tremens immediately affects the brain, causing it to secrete in high quantities several hormones like GABA and serotonin to attempt to find balance in the non-drinking state. These hormones may also decrease rapidly. The neurological effects cause confusion, great anxiety, and sometimes visual and auditory hallucinations. However, their primary dangerous effect is that the body responds to the upshifts and downshifts of neural chemicals by causing breathing difficulties, rapid heart rate, and severe arrhythmias, as well as abnormally high blood pressure. A single arrhythmia can cause death if left unaddressed.

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"Hey, that's not very nice, Mayor--
just because a person's gay doesn't mean he's a fag!"
-Stan

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To start... Citation?

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The sly face at the end of my post is a link to my source. Delirium tremens as a result of alcohol withdrawal is a well-known medical condition; you can look it up pretty easily on more sites if you aren't satisfied with that one.

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Also, those symptoms would be very unlikely to cause death in an otherwise healthy individual.

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Delirium tremens (DTs) is a severe manifestation of alcohol withdrawal. Pearson first described it in 1813 as an acute psychosis following abstinence from alcohol. Although it only occurs in a relatively small number of patients who undergo alcohol withdrawal, it can be fatal. DTs is a medical emergency that requires prompt recognition and treatment.

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If you could reference any deaths that have occurred under those circumstances, that'd be great.

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1 minute on google says:

http://tinyurl.com/6bz9gh

http://preview.tinyurl.com/628u8n


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"Hey, that's not very nice, Mayor--
just because a person's gay doesn't mean he's a fag!"
-Stan

Addiction is a very real thing and claiming that it's just "choosing to be addicted" is retarded.

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O` tru apothecary!
Thy drugs are quick.
Thus with a kiss I die.

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I read an article not more than two years ago about a guy who literally died from alcohol withdrawal because he quit cold turkey.

Addiction is a very real thing and claiming that it's just "choosing to be addicted" is retarded.

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Well thats why I put it out there. Im not sure if i agree with it, but I think its a very psychological thing.

Not only that, but the main reason this holds much relevance is that this man has spent a huge amount of his life working with addicts.

And just because you know or have heard of someone who died from withdrawal, should let you just say that what this man has to say is retarded.

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Punctured bicycle on a hillside, desolate,
Could nature make a man of me yet?

What you can say conclusively is that, to quit cold turkey requires a person to have the willpower to intentionally suffer the symptoms of withdrawal despite the knowledge that he could end them through relapse to his drug. Most people make the decision to relapse to not suffer symptoms and to fix that 'need' for the drug.

-------
O` tru apothecary!
Thy drugs are quick.
Thus with a kiss I die.

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The point is that while "willpower" is ultimately what determines a willful break from an addition, claiming that physical addiction in hard drugs does not exist is ignorant, especially when there are physical symptoms and even the risk of death.

What you can say conclusively is that, to quit cold turkey requires a person to have the willpower to intentionally suffer the symptoms of withdrawal despite the knowledge that he could end them through relapse to his drug. Most people make the decision to relapse to not suffer symptoms and to fix that 'need' for the drug.

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The point is that while "willpower" is ultimately what determines a willful break from an addition, claiming that physical addiction in hard drugs does not exist is ignorant, especially when there are physical symptoms and even the risk of death.

What you can say conclusively is that, to quit cold turkey requires a person to have the willpower to intentionally suffer the symptoms of withdrawal despite the knowledge that he could end them through relapse to his drug. Most people make the decision to relapse to not suffer symptoms and to fix that 'need' for the drug.

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I think its a very interesting aqrgument he puts forward, which holds some valid poaints.

I dont think he completely discounted the physical aspect of the drug.

Though, the addiction is largely mental.

I mean I read in a study that smokers arent addicted as such to the nicotene, its the lighting up, the flicking the ash, the drag. That relieves stress which is the mental addiction and hardest to lose.

I wish I could find that, it was in the telegraph like a year ago.

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Punctured bicycle on a hillside, desolate,
Could nature make a man of me yet?

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Quote: from medjai at 10:12 am on Oct. 22, 2008

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The point is that while "willpower" is ultimately what determines a willful break from an addition, claiming that physical addiction in hard drugs does not exist is ignorant, especially when there are physical symptoms and even the risk of death.  

 What you can say conclusively is that, to quit cold turkey requires a person to have the willpower to intentionally suffer the symptoms of withdrawal despite the knowledge that he could end them through relapse to his drug. Most people make the decision to relapse to not suffer symptoms and to fix that 'need' for the drug.

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I think its a very interesting aqrgument he puts forward, which holds some valid poaints.

I dont think he completely discounted the physical aspect of the drug.

Though, the addiction is largely mental.

I mean I read in a study that smokers arent addicted as such to the nicotene, its the lighting up, the flicking the ash, the drag. That relieves stress which is the mental addiction and hardest to lose.

I wish I could find that, it was in the telegraph like a year ago.

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Quote: from ElephantStone at 2:24 am on Oct. 22, 2008

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Quote: from medjai at 10:12 am on Oct. 22, 2008

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The point is that while "willpower" is ultimately what determines a willful break from an addition, claiming that physical addiction in hard drugs does not exist is ignorant, especially when there are physical symptoms and even the risk of death.

  What you can say conclusively is that, to quit cold turkey requires a person to have the willpower to intentionally suffer the symptoms of withdrawal despite the knowledge that he could end them through relapse to his drug. Most people make the decision to relapse to not suffer symptoms and to fix that 'need' for the drug.

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 I think its a very interesting aqrgument he puts forward, which holds some valid poaints.  

 I dont think he completely discounted the physical aspect of the drug.  

 Though, the addiction is largely mental.  

 I mean I read in a study that smokers arent addicted as such to the nicotene, its the lighting up, the flicking the ash, the drag. That relieves stress which is the mental addiction and hardest to lose.  

 I wish I could find that, it was in the telegraph like a year ago.

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Aye, even the menthol. In the case of smokers, it seems as though they are more drawn to the routine than to the psychoactive substance itself.

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Yeah thats exactly what I meant. The routine of it is the psychological dependance. Its like biting your fingernails. Psychological rather than physical.

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Punctured bicycle on a hillside, desolate,
Could nature make a man of me yet?

He won't, I've tried it.

-------
O` tru apothecary!
Thy drugs are quick.
Thus with a kiss I die.

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Well make an alternative smoke stick with no nicotine and experiment as to whether or not the smoker will not feel as satisfied as when he smokes a cigarette.

He won't, I've tried it.

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Well make an alternative smoke stick with no nicotine and experiment as to whether or not the smoker will not feel as satisfied as when he smokes a cigarette.

He won't, I've tried it.

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Theres psychology to it aswell though.

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Punctured bicycle on a hillside, desolate,
Could nature make a man of me yet?

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Quote: from medjai at 12:41 pm on Oct. 22, 2008

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Well make an alternative smoke stick with no nicotine and experiment as to whether or not the smoker will not feel as satisfied as when he smokes a cigarette.  

 He won't, I've tried it.

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Yes, and I'm sure it was profoundly scientific. But the research-backed fact remains that people can become extremely dependent on routines as simple as brushing one's teeth that has nothing to do with "habit-forming" substances.

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It was certainly pragmatic, research shows that nicotine is one of the most addictive substances on the planet, so claiming that it's primarily the psychological urge to hold a cigarette, no matter how romantic, is not "very scientific."

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O` tru apothecary!
Thy drugs are quick.
Thus with a kiss I die.

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Quote: from wallopwoop at 12:48 pm on Oct. 22, 2008

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Quote: from medjai at 12:41 pm on Oct. 22, 2008

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Well make an alternative smoke stick with no nicotine and experiment as to whether or not the smoker will not feel as satisfied as when he smokes a cigarette.

  He won't, I've tried it.

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 Yes, and I'm sure it was profoundly scientific. But the research-backed fact remains that people can become extremely dependent on routines as simple as brushing one's teeth that has nothing to do with "habit-forming" substances.

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cite it, please

It was certainly pragmatic, research shows that nicotine is one of the most addictive substances on the planet, so claiming that it's primarily the psychological urge to hold a cigarette, no matter how romantic, is not "very scientific."

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