Adding Reply Archived Topic: It will not be bumped to the top of the forum. Topic Because suicidals are the selfish ones. Membername   Not a member? Sign Up Free (takes 20 seconds) Password   Forgotten your password? Post Font: Verdana Arial Black Georgia Comic Sans Impact   Size: Tiny Normal Big Huge   Color: Default Dark Red Red Orange Brown Green Olive Cyan Blue Dark Blue Indigo Black [ Check Spelling ] [ Post Preview ] [ LiveTags ] FAQ Keyword Search: Post Options Favorites Manager Notify me of new replies to this topic by email Notify me of new replies to this topic by private message Original Post The Last Magister Posted at 2:08 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Yup, because if someone wants to kill themselves that genuinely does not have any want or like of living, and decides one day to kill themselves, that makes them selfish. Of course, they cause pain to a few people for a while, and of course, it's definitely the suicidal who is being selfish when people tell him/her that they can't kill themselves because they wouldn't be able to cope, so they demand that the person who no longer has a want to live, lives, so they don't have to feel bad. Because suicidal are the selfish ones, definitely not the people who don't want to feel bad so they pull a guilt trip on that person, making them feel worse, and spend a long time here doing something they don't want to, all because the people that "love" them so much would rather that person suffer an entire lifetime then cope for a year or two. And of course, it's not selfish at all that if one who wishes to die, tries and botches things one way or another, and an unexpected intervention or a trip to the hospital, it's ok to restrain that person and keep them locked up in a psychiatric ward even when they don't want to live, and drug them into a mindless stupor. It's ok to force these people for months to listen to things they don't want to hear from people they don't trust, and they just want to be done with everything. Because the suicidals are the selfish ones, not the people who will force them to live and take their mind away from them if they can't "cure" them so they don't kill themselves by subduing it with chemicals. Why? Because if you are suicidal, something is automatically wrong with your head. It's not "normal" to not want to live, EVERYONE DOES IT! Funny, that sounds vaguely familiar, "Hey, they are different, so there must be something wrong with them!" I don't know...where could I start, umm, sexes? races? sexualities? In other words, just because you can't understand something, that automatically makes it "wrong" and you need to "fix" it. Makes perfect sense. While I'm not saying that there isn't Sally down the street who always dresses in black and cuts herself because all she wants is attention, a shoulder to cry on, and a pat on the back on her way out, but that doesn't mean that's everyone. Not everyone wants to be fixed, or cured, or made right, some people just don't want to live anymore. But then again, suicidals are the selfish ones, because they don't think the same way as everyone else so there must be something wrong with their heads and need to be fixed to think like most people, even if they don't want to. So, to basically sum up the way most people think about suicide: Dying is a bad thing, that I fear irrationally and think is a big deal, and if someone wants to die that I love and want the best for, then I need to make sure they stay on this planet and suffer for the rest of their life so I don't have to feel bad about the fact they died, because if he is suicidal, then there is obviously something wrong with him because I don't think that way. Makes perfect sense. Just like how being gay is hereditary right? Also, I am going to laugh, hard, if this topic gets deleted with a nice little message telling me that we don't need this kind of talk on this website, because that's just further proving my point that most people are arrogant enough to assume they know what's best, and have a right to suppress and "condition" if they think otherwise, whether they'd like to or not. On a final note, don't tell me I don't know what it's like to be suicidal, because there's a reason I know exactly who is being the selfish one here. And I love how so few people can detect the sarcasm that's practically pouring from this topic.

Replies Rainbow Blight Posted at 1:29 am on Jan. 10, 2009 THANK YOU for making this topic; I've been meaning to make a suicide justification topic for awhile but never got around to doing so and expected much criticism.  I'm actually surprised that other people responded by agreeing with you.  I've always believed in the right to die if you want to.  Great job.  I read the entire topic. Quote: from Chava at 7:26 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 It's actually against the law to kill yourself. Attempting can be (but most of the time is not) tried as attempted murder. It's still illegal to kill yourself in the United States?  I thought that got repealed earlier in the 20th Century =/ Chava Posted at 7:26 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 I agree with prisoner of hss. It's actually against the law to kill yourself. Attempting can be (but most of the time is not) tried as attempted murder. If someone is miserable enough to think that a permanant solution is the only way to deal with their situation then isn't it inhumane to stop them? iconoclast Posted at 7:09 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 I'll just say that I completely disagree with Fauna in the area that 'mental illness should be left up to the mental health field and the professionals'. There's a certain dogma in this field and refusing to acknowledge other ideas, even if they lack obvious scientific 'evidence' (partly because the focus in mental health is on the brain, hard to prove these things, etc), can be very harmful. I also agree with lack of intervention if the person doesn't want it (provided they are not a danger to OTHERS). I mean seriously, we want it all. We piss and moan when people become suicidal, at least in PART due to the cold, bleak nature of our society, but don't even let them go. I think in the long term, forcing people to live is actually a bad thing because it gives people an easy way to just blow off the problem (If he's 'mentally ill', stick him in the hospital, give him drugs, etc.) Nowhere are people forced to deal with the action itself. If people were allowed to commit suicide and their family couldn't do anything, maybe they'd, at least eventually, interact with them on a more sensible basis and get to the root of the problem. Not allowing some cheap shot "intervention" forces people to directly deal with the problem, as much of a pain it probably would be for awhile. I mean, just picture it this way. Instead of thinking "we can get him some help", people would think "He can kill him/herself, and it could really actually happen, and we can't force him/her not to, so we're going to need to think of a better way" If society offered real help, and people weren't such fucking morons in the place, then most people wouldn't get as far as they do. Instituting policies that forbid intervention unless the party request it might cost a few lives in the short term, but honestly, it's not our responsibility to save someones life just because it *might* be better in the long term. It's our responsibility to help sway people away from suicide without violating their human rights, especially early on. Depression is a serious negative reaction to a number of psychological and environmental factors, but that doesn't make it abnormal. It's normal given what people go through, but it's definitely still a very bad thing. The Last Magister Posted at 4:48 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Just another kid at 6:42 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 what about if it is a child, say six years old, who decides to kill themselves. is that the same case, or would you advocate intervention? If a six year old decided to kill themselves, I would seriously doubt that they were serious, and they wanted attention. I think the option should be available for help, and the problem with picking a six year old is that they barely have any thinking development at all, in otherwords, they don't have the capacity to decide yet, but when your mind has matured enough to seriously contemplate suicide, not as a cry for help, then it is wrong to intervene. But to be honest, you know it's unrealistic for a six year old to contemplate suicide seriously. Fauna Posted at 4:44 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 I was using the actions of psychotic as an example to try and show that the immediate wants of person with mental illness is not necessarily the best course of action to follow, even at the expense of their immediate happiness when safety and long-term happiness are at stake. My idea of "making aid available" seems to be your idea of shoving help down someone's throats. If someone has attempted suicide and failed, they should be made to receive psychiatric help. I don't see where I've switched around. this argument is stupid because it's pointless, acheiving nothing, and you are a frustrating person. libertine Posted at 4:42 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 what about if it is a child, say six years old, who decides to kill themselves. is that the same case, or would you advocate intervention? The Last Magister Posted at 4:30 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Fauna at 6:19 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Oh please, it is a fatuous argument - if you want to take that as a white flag, and do your victory dance, be my fucking guest. Also, your first paragraph a garble of nonsense. UGH. GOD. YOU'RE SO PEDANTIC. the reason it's ironic  is that you tried to reduce depression into something which sounded easy and acceptable i.e just a change of thought process, rather than the crippling mental illness it is because you keep making all these points about how awful the idea of normalcy is. I didn't think I'd have to explain. Most societies place immediate safety and well-being of individuals above their immediate happiness, it's not totalitarian in this instance because the goal is for long-term happiness. Loads of psychotic people would be much happier going on killing sprees, but we restrict that happiness for their own safety and the safety of others. Same with anorexics, or drug addicts. I don't think we should stop people from killing themselves, but, if they attempt and fail we have a responsibility to offer them medical help. You totally switched directions, but I understand what you say depression implies, and I am saying that depends again on perspective as to what is crippling. Second, this topic has nothing to do with homicide. Taking someone else's choice of life away from them is what we are doing when we prevent suicide, not the reverse. In a way, preventing suicide is just as controlling as murder. As I have stated multiple times, I AGREE THAT THE AID SHOULD BE MADE AVAILABE just not shoved down their throats. Also, my first paragraph was merely stating that you claim this argument to be stupid because you can't prove who is right or wrong, and you are in a position where if you cannot prove yourself right, you prove yourself wrong, it's the fault of taking an ultimate stance on anything. Fauna Posted at 4:19 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Oh please, it is a fatuous argument - if you want to take that as a white flag, and do your victory dance, be my fucking guest. Also, your first paragraph a garble of nonsense. UGH. GOD. YOU'RE SO PEDANTIC. the reason it's ironic  is that you tried to reduce depression into something which sounded easy and acceptable i.e just a change of thought process, rather than the crippling mental illness it is because you keep making all these points about how awful the idea of normalcy is. I didn't think I'd have to explain. Most societies place immediate safety and well-being of individuals above their immediate happiness, it's not totalitarian in this instance because the goal is for long-term happiness. Loads of psychotic people would be much happier going on killing sprees, but we restrict that happiness for their own safety and the safety of others. Same with anorexics, or drug addicts. I don't think we should stop people from killing themselves, but, if they attempt and fail we have a responsibility to offer them medical help. Tasbard Posted at 4:11 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from TheLastMagister at 5:28 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Tasbard at 4:23 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 I'd buy you an ice cream, but you're on the Internets.    My sample size is too small to warrant a valid opinion. The only person I've ever known who tried to commit suicide did it because of a deep need to be loved and admired and the center of attention... and a lack of confidence in her ability to gain it by any other means. Suicide isn't selfish, no, but telling people that it is definitely is.    As for the people who tell someone who is suicidal not to commit suicide for them are trying desperately to give that person a reason, any reason, to live. They are trying to express their love for that person. So it's alright to extort people and cause them even more pain if you love them? Well, no. It's probably alright to want them to be happy, though. The Last Magister Posted at 4:10 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Fauna at 5:59 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was saying you being reductive, removing the element of negativity to try and, ironically, normalize depression. Most people do want help, even those who don't are still in the throes of depression. It would be immoral to give in to the desires of a mentally ill person who says they want to die, without attempting to help them.   this argument is fatuous. No, it is a perfectly rational conversation that you know you can't prove. The reason you claim the argument to be fatuous is because if it were to be left at your stance cannot be proven, then it would undermine the idea currently in place, thus proving me correct in saying ultimatums cannot always work the same for every individual. On that note, depression is just a word. The connection made by it is what we are discussing, the word itself has no real value, so there is no irony to be had, unless you were to say that there is a definitive standard of normal. Which again brings me to the point of you can't merely assume what is normal and moral based off majority opinion, as history has shown us. Furthermore, if well being is above the wants of the individual, then does that justify a totalitarian society that keeps your safety above your happiness? Do not say this is a bad analogy, because you are quite literally implying that if someone wants to die it's someone else's job to stop them even if they want to because their livelihood is more important. Fauna Posted at 3:59 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was saying you being reductive, removing the element of negativity to try and, ironically, normalize depression. Most people do want help, even those who don't are still in the throes of depression. It would be immoral to give in to the desires of a mentally ill person who says they want to die, without attempting to help them. this argument is fatuous. The Last Magister Posted at 3:37 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Fauna at 5:28 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from TheLastMagister at 11:10 pm on Jan. 9, 2009  Rofl, I'd like you to tell me what else it changes if it's a mental illness and the primary function of the mind is to think. It's the thoughts, subconscious and conscious, that control your actions.  I could speak anecdotally, and I know that it is a perfectly reasonable way of thinking that if you do not like your life, and do not wish for things that have happened in the past to happen again, if you can control them or not, then it does make sense to commit suicide. To be quite frank the only reason you are speaking to me right now is because of one of the aforementioned groups used guilt over me so I couldn't, knowing they were feeling the way they were. While I know that a large number of people who are suicidal want help, some really don't, and it's wrong that they are often forced to stay here, because people think there is something wrong with them. Sometimes they just want everything to be over. So no, your preconcieved notions of being suicidal aren't correct in that they all want to be happy and fixed, sometimes people just don't want to try anymore. Urgh, saying depression merely changes your thought process is too reductive. This is horrifically pedantic. Depression affects your thoughts, your emotions, your behaviour, your ability to function in the world, it can affect you physically, and all negatively; you could reduce it to "it changes your thought process" but this is terribly myopic.   some people don't want to seek out help, some people don't want to try anymore and I don't think suicide is a terrible thing to do - if you knew me in real life, you would know why a thought like that would never cross my mind. I do think we, as a society (and you can argue against the notion of society, but this is one of its more altruistic functions) should to try and preserve life, and to help people if they can possibly be helped, however. So many people are lost in their illness, and don't believe there is help or don't know how to find help and suicide becomes an option out of desperation - to take on your attitude would be a huge step back in terms of awareness and helping to pull people out of depression before they reach that moment of nihilistic apathy. Again, you misunderstand me, to say the thought process in a belittling fashion would show ignorance on my part as thought is what makes us who we are. I am not saying shut down every attempt to help suicidals, I am saying everyone needs to realize what death and suicide exactly imply, and that we need to stop thinking it's a "one size fits all" deal where everyone can and wants to be saved deep down. The Last Magister Posted at 3:33 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Daleacus at 5:26 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Well, I quite liked the point you made as something to think about, and thought the way it was presented was amusing. However, the development of the topic is hilarious. I see circles. Unfortunately, as do I. Many people just blatantly refuse to see logic in something they've always thought was wrong. Fauna Posted at 3:28 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from TheLastMagister at 11:10 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Rofl, I'd like you to tell me what else it changes if it's a mental illness and the primary function of the mind is to think. It's the thoughts, subconscious and conscious, that control your actions.   I could speak anecdotally, and I know that it is a perfectly reasonable way of thinking that if you do not like your life, and do not wish for things that have happened in the past to happen again, if you can control them or not, then it does make sense to commit suicide. To be quite frank the only reason you are speaking to me right now is because of one of the aforementioned groups used guilt over me so I couldn't, knowing they were feeling the way they were. While I know that a large number of people who are suicidal want help, some really don't, and it's wrong that they are often forced to stay here, because people think there is something wrong with them. Sometimes they just want everything to be over. So no, your preconcieved notions of being suicidal aren't correct in that they all want to be happy and fixed, sometimes people just don't want to try anymore. Urgh, saying depression merely changes your thought process is too reductive. This is horrifically pedantic. Depression affects your thoughts, your emotions, your behaviour, your ability to function in the world, it can affect you physically, and all negatively; you could reduce it to "it changes your thought process" but this is terribly myopic. some people don't want to seek out help, some people don't want to try anymore and I don't think suicide is a terrible thing to do - if you knew me in real life, you would know why a thought like that would never cross my mind. I do think we, as a society (and you can argue against the notion of society, but this is one of its more altruistic functions) should to try and preserve life, and to help people if they can possibly be helped, however. So many people are lost in their illness, and don't believe there is help or don't know how to find help and suicide becomes an option out of desperation - to take on your attitude would be a huge step back in terms of awareness and helping to pull people out of depression before they reach that moment of nihilistic apathy. Daleacus Posted at 3:26 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Well, I quite liked the point you made as something to think about, and thought the way it was presented was amusing. However, the development of the topic is hilarious. I see circles. Most recent 15 of 34 previous replies displayed.