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Topic Do you love America?
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Original Post
Bearsy Posted at 1:13 am on Aug. 30, 2008
discuss.

Replies
whoareyou Posted at 7:10 pm on Sep. 2, 2008

King was closely aligned with known members of the communist party. There are mountains of evidence to support the fact that King had both direct and indirect ties to known Communist Party members. In fact, one of his closest advisers, Stanley Levison, was a known member of the Communist Party.

But communism didn't have a key role in the movement itself. Neither King nor his movement preached an alternative to the American democracy. Plus, communism would have hindered, not helped his movement, and would have only exacerbated racial tension between blacks and whites. Communism and racial integration could not coexist in his "dream". Even if he were a communist and was only pretending to be a clergyman with the righteousness that only devout religious preachers have, he never would have used those theories for the movement, because that would be a step backwards. Therefore, as a political leader, you can hardly categorize him as communist.

Asserting King's political theories, how do the aforementioned make him a communist threat? King figured out what it takes to make social change. Is it his fault that the black community could only be heard when it was unarguable that racists were mistreating them horribly? The government was too comfortable enough with turning the other cheek to react unless provoked with obvious proof of human rights breechings.


He wanted only equality?

As a leader of an oppressed community, how can you blame him for wanting more than just "equal human rights"? If you lock a person up in a cage for a week, they're not going to react with: "Gee, thanks for letting me out", upon release. It's inevitable for a leader of an oppressed people to ask for more than just "equal rights", and it doesn't make him un-American. Is there a better alternative reaction to this situation? I think that considering the conditions, this reaction was inevitable.
-
His Operation Breadbasket wasn't realistic and it wasn't reasonable. Plenty of white presidents have had equally unrealistic and unreasonable ideas. They get rejected, forgiven, and then they move on. So it goes. It's called trying to find a good solution.



It's not an opinion. King admitted to being a Marxist and had ties with many Communists.

You may call it a theory.
kidd rune Posted at 5:49 pm on Sep. 2, 2008

Abner Berry has been connected to the Communist Party, but the other names are not "all open and acknowledged members of the Communist Party, USA."
Yes, though many of them claim otherwise in defense, they were communists.



Can you find another source for this? Because according to all my sources, Rustin left the Communist Party in 1941 when he met Philip Randolph, an African American trade union leader who strongly opposed communism.
Neither of us have the resources to disprove or prove this. Anyone can say that they are no longer a communist. It was also common seeing as Americans, at the time, we very anti-communist. ANYONE can say that they stopped being a communist, but, somehow, this info about the 16th convention is out. Try Googling the 16th Communist convention. You'll see that it happened, yet not much info at all on it.


Although I don't trust your source at all, I will acknowledge that communism played a role in the civil rights movement. Since the early 1900's blacks have faced ever-present debate of: Booker T. or Du Bois? Submission to white oppression or retaliation? And if retaliation, then where exists the line between reasonable and radical? Communism was an easy philosophy to turn to, not because activists were un-American, but because it was a philosophy that abolishes racial differences.
The whole thought of Communism is inexcusable. Communism is a disgusting, inhumane ideal.



Although King had communist supporters, that shouldn't mean that he aimed to dismantle American society in order to give blacks a better place, as your site is insinuating, with its references to radical Robert F. Williams, and the selected quotes used to represent King.
King was closely aligned with known members of the communist party. There are mountains of evidence to support the fact that King had both direct and indirect ties to known Communist Party members. In fact, one of his closest advisers, Stanley Levison, was a known member of the Communist Party.

It's on public record that King was, if nothing else, affiliated with known communists. In fact, both John F. Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy told King to sever all ties with communists. King defied their requests and was subsequently placed under surveillance by the FBI, as per Robert F. Kennedy's orders.



Surely he had the power and influence to be the frightening black communist that so many whites in power wanted to paint him as, but he didn't us it for such.
Or did he? King wasn't a little angel that only wanted everyone to be treated equally by use of nonviolence.

King openly admitted in his own book, "Why We Can't Wait," and in an article written for Saturday Review, that inciting people to violence is the key to success of the civil rights march. King stated:

"Long years of experience indicate to us that Negroes can achieve this goal when four things occur:

1. Nonviolent demonstrators go into the streets to exercise their Constitutional rights.

2. Racists resist by unleashing violence against them.

3. Americans of conscience in the name of decency demand federal intervention and legislation.

4. The Administration, under mass pressure, initiates measures of immediate intervention and remedial legislation."

(ML King, Jr., "Behind the Selma March", Saturday Review, April 3, 1965, pp. 16, 17; 57.)


The greatness of Dr. King is he preached that democracy too could welcome blacks, if blacks were willing to fight for a fair democracy. Thus creating the needed niche between Du Bois and Washington that would finally perpetuate social change in the States.
He wanted only equality?

This is probably the most repeated myth about King. Writing on National Review Online, There Heritage Foundation's Matthew Spalding wrote a piece entitled "Martin Luther King's Conservative Mind," where he wrote, "An agenda that advocates quotas, counting by race and set-asides takes us away from King's vision."

The problem with this view is that King openly advocated quotas and racial set-asides. He wrote that the "Negro today is not struggling for some abstract, vague rights, but for concrete improvement in his way of life." When equal opportunity laws failed to achieve this, King looked for other ways. In his book Where Do We Go From Here, he suggested that "A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis." To do this he expressed support for quotas. In a 1968 Playboy interview, he said, "If a city has a 30% Negro population, then it is logical to assume that Negroes should have at least 30% of the jobs in any particular company, and jobs in all categories rather than only in menial areas." King was more than just talk in this regard. Working through his Operation Breadbasket, King threatened boycotts of businesses that did not hire blacks in proportion to their population.

King was even an early proponent of reparations. In his 1964 book, Why We Can't Wait, he wrote,
"No amount of gold could provide an adequate compensation for the exploitation and humiliation of the Negro in America down through the centuries...Yet a price can be placed on unpaid wages. The ancient common law has always provided a remedy for the appropriation of a the labor of one human being by another. This law should be made to apply for American Negroes. The payment should be in the form of a massive program by the government of special, compensatory measures which could be regarded as a settlement in accordance with the accepted practice of common law. "

Predicting that critics would note that many whites were equally disadvantaged, King claimed that his program, which he called the "Bill of Rights for the Disadvantaged" would help poor whites as well. This is because once the blacks received reparations, the poor whites would realize that their real enemy was rich whites.


Also, Marxist=/= communist. You can have Marxist theories in America without being accused of communism...
Yes, but it's inexcusable that he was so close to people in the American COMMUNIST party.



I refuse to read and/or try to disprove the rest of your post, because it's copied from an unreliable site obviously intent on slaughtering King's image.
I refuse to read from an unreliable site obviously intent on faking King's image.



Try: "in my opinion..."
It's not an opinion. King admitted to being a Marxist and had ties with many Communists.


I can't wait till 2027 when his private file is released. THEN you'll know that info about King that will "ruin his reputation". Silly FBI surveillance tapes...

whoareyou Posted at 11:05 am on Sep. 2, 2008
I love how your source is:
Martinlutherking.org/the beast. Sounds very reliable.  


The Highlander Folk School was a Communist front, having been founded by Myles Horton (Communist Party organizer for Tennessee) and Don West (Communist Party organizer for North Carolina). The leaders of this meeting with King were the aforementioned Horton and West, along with Abner Berry and James Dumbrowski, all open and acknowledged members of the Communist Party, USA.

Abner Berry has been connected to the Communist Party, but the other names are not "all open and acknowledged members of the Communist Party, USA."


Rustin attended the 16th Convention of the Communist Party, USA in February, 1957.

Can you find another source for this? Because according to all my sources, Rustin left the Communist Party in 1941 when he met Philip Randolph, an African American trade union leader who strongly opposed communism.  

Although I don't trust your source at all, I will acknowledge that communism played a role in the civil rights movement. Since the early 1900's blacks have faced ever-present debate of: Booker T. or Du Bois? Submission to white oppression or retaliation? And if retaliation, then where exists the line between reasonable and radical? Communism was an easy philosophy to turn to, not because activists were un-American, but because it was a philosophy that abolishes racial differences.  
"I Never Met a Black Person Who Was in the Communist Party Because of the Soviet Union:" Jack O'Dell.
King created a new alternative way for social change without violence and radicalism, thus broadening the methods for social change.
Although King had communist supporters, that shouldn't mean that he aimed to dismantle American society in order to give blacks a better place, as your site is insinuating, with its references to radical Robert F. Williams, and the selected quotes used to represent King.
Surely he had the power and influence to be the frightening black communist that so many whites in power wanted to paint him as, but he didn't us it for such.  
The greatness of Dr. King is he preached that democracy too could welcome blacks, if blacks were willing to fight for a fair democracy. Thus creating the needed niche between Du Bois and Washington that would finally perpetuate social change in the States.
--

Also, Marxist=/= communist. You can have Marxist theories in America without being accused of communism...

I refuse to read and/or try to disprove the rest of your post, because it's copied from an unreliable site obviously intent on slaughtering King's image.
Also, you really shouldn't be going around saying things like


Micheal King (Martin Luther King Jr's real name) was a communist.
Try: "in my opinion..."
airemaye Posted at 10:24 pm on Sep. 1, 2008
Quote: from WhiteDwarf at 8:59 pm on Aug. 31, 2008

I can't believe all this sprouted from sarcasm. Sad.

I do love America, not in a patriotic zealous way, even with the past half-century of imperialist global-shaping nation-building policy leaving me somewhat disenfranchised. But, for what its worth, ignoring politics and all the negative faults with my birthplace, she'll always be apart of me.


This is pretty much how I feel.

Shaknbake Posted at 8:24 pm on Sep. 1, 2008
Quote: from kidd rune at 5:44 pm on Aug. 31, 2008

JeanClaude is the one that claimed the KKK was pro communist, not me.

I know, but your original response was to my post. You seemed to think I thought the KKK was pro-communist. Your entire discussion with him came after that.

Assaultrifle Posted at 8:20 pm on Sep. 1, 2008
Hell yeah I love America!!!
Miss Prophetess Posted at 8:52 am on Sep. 1, 2008
Personally, I love it here.  Yes, we have problems, mainly economic, but even considering that, I like it here. :)
WhiteDwarf Posted at 6:59 pm on Aug. 31, 2008
I can't believe all this sprouted from sarcasm. Sad.

I do love America, not in a patriotic zealous way, even with the past half-century of imperialist global-shaping nation-building policy leaving me somewhat disenfranchised. But, for what its worth, ignoring politics and all the negative faults with my birthplace, she'll always be apart of me.

kidd rune Posted at 5:44 pm on Aug. 31, 2008
Quote: from Shaknbake at 5:31 pm on Aug. 31, 2008

Quote: from kidd rune at 10:26 am on Aug. 30, 2008

ARE YOU SERIOUS?  

 Do you SERIOUSLY think the KKK is pro-communist?


Fail.

When someone says something like "More like AmeriKKKa" do you generally expect them to think favorably of the KKK? No. If someone compares America to the KKK and you call them a commie, you're attacking them for being un-American. Not that it was serious criticism anyway.

You wasted a lot of time and energy just there.


JeanClaude is the one that claimed the KKK was pro communist, not me.
Shaknbake Posted at 5:31 pm on Aug. 31, 2008
Quote: from kidd rune at 10:26 am on Aug. 30, 2008

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Do you SERIOUSLY think the KKK is pro-communist?


Fail.

When someone says something like "More like AmeriKKKa" do you generally expect them to think favorably of the KKK? No. If someone compares America to the KKK and you call them a commie, you're attacking them for being un-American. Not that it was serious criticism anyway.

You wasted a lot of time and energy just there.

kidd rune Posted at 4:54 pm on Aug. 31, 2008
What about the NAACP?

Almost from the first day of its inception in 1909, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) was the premier organization working for a racially mixed American society. Interestingly enough, the founding board of directors had only one prominent Black, W. E. B. Dubois (who was actually a Mulatto). Most of the board consisted of Jewish Marxist ideologues. The U.S. House of Representatives and many state investigative bodies thoroughly documented the fact that all of the NAACP's founders were activists in the Communist cause. Dubois even chose Communist Ghana as his burial site.

The NAACP's first president was Arthur Spingarn, and only Jews served as NAACP presidents from its founding until the 1970s. Noel Spingarn succeeded his brother, Arthur, and following him, Kivie Kaplan reigned over the organization. The Jewish leadership of the NAACP was little known by the public at large. When I came of age, the only name I heard associated with the NAACP was Roy Wilkins, who was its Black national secretary. Because he was so much in the press and public eye, like most Americans, I thought Wilkins was the NAACP leader. But Kaplan was the actual NAACP president during that time. Benjamin Hooks became the first Black president finally in the 1970s. Once a Black finally made it to the presidency of the organization, no longer did the public hear much about the NAACP "national secretary." From then on the public spokesman was the NAACP president.

kidd rune Posted at 4:44 pm on Aug. 31, 2008
On Labor Day, 1957, a special meeting was attended by Martin Luther King and four others at a strange institution called the Highlander Folk School in Monteagle, Tennessee. The Highlander Folk School was a Communist front, having been founded by Myles Horton (Communist Party organizer for Tennessee) and Don West (Communist Party organizer for North Carolina). The leaders of this meeting with King were the aforementioned Horton and West, along with Abner Berry and James Dumbrowski, all open and acknowledged members of the Communist Party, USA. The agenda of the meeting was a plan to tour the Southern states to initiate demonstrations and riots.


From 1955 to 1960, Martin Luther King's associate, advisor, and personal secretary was one Bayard Rustin. In 1936 Rustin joined the Young Communist League at New York City College. Convicted of draft-dodging, he went to prison for two years in 1944. On January 23, 1953 the "Los Angeles Times" reported his conviction and sentencing to jail for 60 days for lewd vagrancy and homosexual perversion. Rustin attended the 16th Convention of the Communist Party, USA in February, 1957. One month later, he and King founded the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, or SCLC for short. The president of the SCLC was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. The vice-president of the SCLC was the Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth, who was also the president of an identified Communist front known as the Southern Conference Educational Fund, an organization whose field director, a Mr. Carl Braden, was simultaneously a national sponsor of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, of which you may have heard. The program director of the SCLC was the Reverend Andrew Young, in more recent years Jimmy Carter's ambassador to the UN and mayor of Atlanta. Young, by the way, was trained at the Highlander Folk School, previously mentioned.


Soon after returning from a trip to Moscow in 1958, Rustin organized the first of King's famous marches on Washington. The official organ of the Communist Party, "The Worker,- - openly declared the march to be a Communist project. Although he left King's employ as secretary in 1961, Rustin was called upon by King to be second in command of the much larger march on Washington which took place on August 28, 1963.


Bayard Rustin's replacement in 1961 as secretary and advisor to King was Jack O'Dell, also known as Hunter Pitts O'Dell. According to official records, in 1962 Jack O'Dell was a member of the National Committee of the Communist Party, USA. He had been listed as a Communist Party member as early as 1956. O'Dell was also given the job of acting executive director for SCLC activities for the entire Southeast, according to the St. Louis "Globe-Democrat - -of October 26, 1962. At that time, there were still some patriots in the press corps, and word of O'Dell's party membership became known.

What did King do? Shortly after the negative news reports, King fired O'Dell with much fanfare. And he then, without the fanfare, "immediately hired him again- - as director of the New York office of the SCLC, as confirmed by the "Richmond News-Leader - -of September 27, 1963. In 1963 a Black man from Monroe, North Carolina named Robert Williams made a trip to Peking, China. Exactly 20 days before King's 1963 march on Washington, Williams successfully urged Mao Tse-Tung to speak out on behalf of King's movement. Mr. Williams was also around this time maintaining his primary residence in Cuba, from which he made regular broadcasts to the southern US, three times a week, from high-power AM transmitters in Havana under the title "Radio Free Dixie." In these broadcasts, he urged violent attacks by Blacks against White Americans.

During this period, Williams wrote a book entitled "Negroes With Guns." The writer of the foreword for this book? None other than Martin Luther King, Jr. It is also interesting to note that the editors and publishers of this book were to a man all supporters of the infamous Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

According to King's biographer and sympathizer David J. Garrow, "King privately described himself as a Marxist." In his 1981 book, "The FBI and Martin Luther King, Jr.", Garrow quotes King as saying in SCLC staff meetings, "...we have moved into a new era, which must be an era of revolution.... The whole structure of American life must be changed.... We are engaged in the class struggle."

Jewish Communist Stanley Levison can best be described as King's behind-the-scenes "handler." Levison, who had for years been in charge of the secret funnelling of Soviet funds to the Communist Party, USA, was King's mentor and was actually the brains behind many of King's more successful ploys. It was Levison who edited King's book, "Stride Toward Freedom." It was Levison who arranged for a publisher. Levison even prepared King's income tax returns! It was Levison who really controlled the fund-raising and agitation activities of the SCLC. Levison wrote many of King's speeches. King described Levison as one of his "closest friends."

whoareyou Posted at 4:00 pm on Aug. 31, 2008

Second, Micheal King (Martin Luther King Jr's real name) was a communist. The civil rights movement itself was supported by the American Communist Party.

Wrong.
MLK was a devout Christian clergyman. That alone should be proof that he wasn't a Communist, seeing as Communism aims to abolish and replace existing religion.

"Communism, avowedly secularistic and materialistic, has no place for God...Second, I strongly disagreed with communism's ethical relativism...Third, I opposed communism's political totalitarianism. IN communism, the individual ends up in subjection to the state." (December 1949) from Quotations from the Speeches Essays and Books of Martin Luther King, Jr.

The only reason King was ever connected to the Commie party was because he was a black political activist during the Cold War, and it was easy for the government to call their political enemies Communists to have them dealt with.

kidd rune Posted at 11:02 am on Aug. 31, 2008
Quote: from JeanClaude at 9:14 am on Aug. 31, 2008

Quote: from kidd rune at 9:34 pm on Aug. 30, 2008

I know how you like to see KKK as evil and Communism as evil, then lump them together

How do you know that?


Then, why do you think the KKK is pro-communist, when I doubt one member would even put up with a communist government.
WhiteDwarf Posted at 9:41 am on Aug. 31, 2008
Quote: from Shaknbake at 9:34 am on Aug. 30, 2008

Loving a political establishment is such nonsense. No, I'm happy to say I don't love America. (I'm an American for all y'all who can't think beyond that little label down thar VVVV.)

Way to be extremely exclusive about interpreting the question.

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